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12:54 PLT_Notify: racket: master Kevin Tew * 074c76b (2 files in 2 dirs): Fix thread based places test failures.  Turn on testing of places - http://bit.ly/gX6BeI
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13:29 amoe_: Hey, I asked this question a few days ago in #scheme, but um, I'll ask it here anyway also...
13:29 amoe_: Anyone know how to use the FFI to bind a varargs C function?
13:29 amoe_: va_list or ... style, either is fine
13:29 amoe_: is it possible?
13:29 jonrafkind: good question
13:31 jonrafkind: i guess you could create a new _fun on the fly and call that
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13:38 amoe_: welcome eli
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13:42 eli: amoe_: Good morning.
13:43 amoe_: eli: do you know, is it possible to bind to a varargs C function using the racket ffi?
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13:46 amoe_: And sorry for harassing you the second you enter the channel.  ;)
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14:05 eli: amoe_: I think so, see http://git.racket-lang.org/plt/blob/HEAD:/collects/ffi/examples/c-printf.rkt
14:06 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/4ahhv4y
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14:06 joe_shmo: hello my dr.racket friend
14:06 joe_shmo: does anyone have time for a c question?
14:06 joe_shmo: friends*
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14:10 joe_shmo: ok, nevermind
14:10 joe_shmo: got it
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14:16 amoe_: cheers eli!  will take a look :)
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14:21 Fisherman: Hi. Is there a way to get automatic indentation and parenthesis matching when using racket from commandline?
14:24 eli: Fisherman: You can get paren highlights using readline, but not more than that.  (I've never heard of anything that does that, btw.)
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14:39 shofetim`: Fisherman I can think of any way to do that at the commandline, but you might try emacs. It has that and much much more. And you can of course use emacs from the commandline, and connect it with a local or remote repl
14:40 shofetim`: DrRacket is cool when you are starting out, so that you don't need to learn an editor, but I find it rather slow and limited compared with emacs.
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14:42 Fisherman: eli: I know petite chez scheme can do indentation (or at least matching parens
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14:43 Fisherman: lol
14:43 Fisherman: i forgot to match the parenthesis
14:43 Fisherman: shofetim: Im a vimmer :)
14:43 eli: Fisherman: I doubt that it can do either.
14:44 Fisherman: vim or petite ?
14:44 eli: Petite.
14:44 eli: Last time I tried it, it didn't surprise me that it had no readline.
14:44 eli: It's a commercial product, therefore unlikely to use the GPLed readline.
14:45 eli: You might have used it wrapped by something like rlwrap.
14:45 Fisherman: yea, it might have been something like that
14:45 eli: But in any case, that's far from doing indentation.
14:46 eli: (And with racket you don't have to wrap it, it is supported directly -- see the docs for "readline".)
14:46 Fisherman: I think petite had indentation at the version on uni
14:46 Fisherman: i see they dont have petite any more (after migrating to ubuntu)
14:47 Fisherman: How do you use racket through emacs?
14:48 eli: Well, I'd be extremely surprised if petite uses readline.
14:48 eli: And I'd be surprised in a different way if readline supports indentation.
14:49 eli: For Emacs use, I just use a simple shell buffer -- I don't bother with indentation there.
14:49 eli: Indentation is something that I do in the actual code -- on the repl I don't see much point in it.
14:54 Fisherman: is it bad to run M-x shell and then M-x scheme-mode?
14:54 amoe_: also M-x run-scheme
14:55 eli: Fisherman: What amoe_ said; `scheme-mode' is different from the shell modes.  (Eg, your enter will insert a newline instead of sending the input to the shell.)
14:56 Fisherman: yeah, I just saw that :)
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14:57 eli: Fisherman: The question is -- why do you need indentation in the shell?
14:57 Fisherman: it is nicer to look at
14:58 Fisherman: I'm also going to teach, using scheme
14:58 eli: My guess is that you're spending too much time doing that (looking at the repl), where it should really be just a debugging tool.
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14:58 Fisherman: huh?
14:59 shofetim: Fisherman: In emacs just to run-scheme. You write your code in one buffer, and then there are key commands to send the last sexp, or region, or buffer etc to the running repl. Which you can view in a seperate buffer. You can also write code in the repl buffer and have the parens matching and indentation
14:59 eli: The fact that some expression is not indented should not bother you if all you're interested in is the result -- which is the way things should be with the repl.
14:59 eli: It's not a good way to write code.
15:00 eli: To make it more concrete, you should write the code in a proper editor (vim, in your case), and then paste expressions into a repl -- not the other way around.
15:00 shofetim: I find DrRacket the most handy for teashing. And it works well for students so that they can be using the exact same setup as you are (emacs has to many potential options)
15:00 eli: Re teaching, you'd be far better with using drracket for these interactions.
15:00 eli: Possibly switching to a different window if you want to edit code in front of the class.
15:00 shofetim: I second eli
15:00 eli: (That's what I do with Emacs and DrRacket, btw.)
15:01 shofetim: BTW vim does have pretty good support for racket
15:01 shofetim: I would have to find the plugin
15:01 shofetim: no need to copy and past to the repl
15:01 shofetim: it can send blocks of code and recieve the results with a key combination
15:02 Fisherman: that's cool
15:02 eli: Fisherman: What course is that, BTW?
15:02 Fisherman: a programming languages course
15:04 eli: Fisherman: In that case I'll make my DrRacket suggestion about an order of magnitude stronger.
15:05 eli: You can't beat the nice demonstration you get with the check-syntax button for bindings, it clarifies things like `let' vs `let*' vs `letrec' in a very effective way -- much better than mumbling about scope and tiring your arms.
15:05 eli: The same goes for a number of other features which drracket shows very nicely.
15:06 eli: I use it to explain lazy evaluation in a very direct way (using code coverage colors it's very obvious when a piece of code wasn't touched).
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15:06 eli: You can also use it to demonstrate tail calls via the stepper, and via the backtrace arrows that you get on an error.
15:06 eli: Etc.
15:06 Fisherman: ah
15:07 shofetim: Fisherman you might find these usefull:
15:07 shofetim: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/94792/using-vim-for-lisp-development
15:07 shofetim: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=221
15:07 shofetim: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=903
15:07 shofetim: http://www.cliki.net/vim
15:07 shofetim: http://nekthuth.com/
15:08 shofetim: Cant remember which one I used to use for VIM + racket
15:08 shofetim: I learned emacs when I had vim so loaded with plugins that it would take a noticable time to load
15:09 Fisherman: hehe
15:09 shofetim: with emacs I can just load a server instance and connect to it with emacsclient
15:09 shofetim: Server still takes a good long while to load, but emacsclient windows open instantly
15:09 Fisherman: it seems like drracket hangs every time i press check syntax
15:10 Fisherman: shofetim: That's one thing that I find cool about emacs
15:10 eli: (Loading time is a weird point to make for Emacs.)
15:10 shofetim: Depending on the size of the file, and the hardware, I do find that DrRacket "pauses" ie you notice it and might think its hung.
15:11 shofetim: ? eli
15:11 eli: Fisherman: Send me some code and I'll see if there's a problem.
15:11 jonrafkind: emacs does take an eternity to load, imo
15:11 Fisherman: (define (f t)
15:11 Fisherman: (let ([k (t 10)])
15:11 Fisherman: ahh, sorry
15:11 eli: jonrafkind: The point was that once it's loaded, you don't need to do it again.
15:12 jonrafkind: thats true, but i like to have multiple editors open at the same time
15:12 jonrafkind: that i open on a whim
15:12 shofetim: yes. I start emacs maybe once a month, it takes about 9 seconds to load on my system (4 CPU cores and 4GB ram)
15:12 shofetim: *shrug* use emacsclient
15:13 shofetim: start and connect many of them to the running emacs server process
15:13 shofetim: I regularly have 4 or so frames, and hundreds of buffers open at a time
15:13 shofetim: and leave emacs up for month or so between restarts
15:13 shofetim: But I live in emacs.... no need for an OS : )
15:14 eli: shofetim: 9 seconds??  That's suspiciously long.
15:15 shofetim: yeah.... its IO bound. Part of it is that the computer is ussually starting alot of other things at the same time (ie just rebooted) and that nxhtml mode + alot of other extensions and some uncompiled e-lisp
15:15 shofetim: takes a long time
15:15 shofetim: I've never botherd to fix it.
15:15 shofetim: 9 seconds or so once a month is just fine by me : )
15:16 eli: Still sounds pretty bad.
15:17 eli: I do run multiple processes btw, at least one as a server, one with the interactive stuff, and one for root jobs.
15:17 eli: Is it possible that you missed the fact that the colors change a little?
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16:45 tauntaun: Is there a document out there that specifies all (or most) of Scheme's behvaior using denotational semantics?
16:47 tauntaun: (I mean "double-bracket" notation.)
16:48 jonrafkind: theres a specification of r6rs in redex somewhere
16:48 jonrafkind: but thats operational semantics
16:49 tauntaun wants denotational... :-(
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17:41 jonrafkind: carleastlund, ping
17:41 jonrafkind: i got a whole bunch of contract errors resulting from scheme.plt 6 3 from planet when installing in a racket 5.1.0.3 vm
17:42 jonrafkind: somehow they didn't seem to prevent my program from running, thoug
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18:05 carleastlund: jonrafkind, upgrade to cce/scheme:7:3
18:06 jonrafkind: it was part of some other package that i dont control
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19:46 john____: hello?
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20:05 bremner_: john____: what a lot of underscores you have have
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20:07 john____: I need help with a list function. I need to use map and filter to decide whether or not a certain number is prime.
20:08 tauntaun: Have you tried anything yet?  Where exactly are you stuck?
20:17 john____: here is what i have so far:
20:17 john____: (define (prime?-noloop x)     (if (filter integer? (map (/ (cdr (range x)))))         #f         #t))
20:18 john____: see i don't understand how to get x to divide out by each element in the list range
20:18 john____: range is just the list from 0 to (- x 1)
20:31 tauntaun: a couple of problems here.
20:32 tauntaun: (First, to get a person's attention on IRC, prefix your input with his name and this will "beep" him in one way or another.)
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20:32 tauntaun: filter returns a list
20:33 tauntaun: so using it as an 'if' condition will always branch true.
20:33 tauntaun: Second, you're using boolean literals (#f #t), which clots the code.
20:34 tauntaun: So your function, expressed more tersely, is:
20:34 tauntaun: (define (prime?-noloop x) (not (filter integer? (map (/ (cdr (range x))))))
20:35 tauntaun: Another problem: map takes two arguments, whereas you've given it only one.
20:35 (quit) Fisherman: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
20:36 tauntaun: john____, ping
20:36 tauntaun: john_____, ping
20:37 john____: tauntaun, I'm here
20:37 tauntaun: Have you understood my comments?
20:38 (quit) Fisherma1: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
20:38 john____: how am I supposed to go about fixing it?
20:38 tauntaun: And do you understand why your code will always return #f?
20:38 john____: no i dont
20:39 tauntaun: Go ahead and ask a specific question about what I wrote.
20:39 john____: I dont understand why my code means that 'not' is in there
20:40 tauntaun: That's because the 'if' condition is always true.
20:40 tauntaun: Scheme has an unusual boolean system, in that all values are true (equivalent to #t), except for the special value #f.
20:41 john____: Should I move the if into the map so that it will be (map (if (<= 3 ..... )))) ?
20:41 tauntaun: No, because the first argument of map must be a function.
20:42 tauntaun: The first thing you need to do is understand the algorithm you're trying to implement.  The fact that you're giving / just one arg suggests more than a coding problem.
20:43 john____: What I want to do is divide x by every value in the list from 0 to (- x 1)
20:43 john____: From there I want to test each one for integer
20:44 tauntaun: ok, let's take that one at a time.
20:44 tauntaun: Does your 'range' function work properly?
20:44 john____: yes
20:44 john____: (range 4) returns
20:44 john____: (0 1 2 3)
20:44 john____: this is what I want it to do
20:44 tauntaun: Ok, now ask yourself: how is map supposed to be called?
20:44 tauntaun: (What are the arguments to map supposed to be?)
20:45 john____: This is where my problem comes in, I have issues understanding the implementation of map
20:45 tauntaun: You don't need to understand the implementation of map, only its specified behavior.
20:45 tauntaun: How is map supposed to behave?
20:45 john____: I suppose I want something like (map (/ x) (cdr (range x)))
20:46 john____: ITs supposed to perform an operatoor
20:46 john____: on each term in a list
20:46 tauntaun: good
20:46 john____: and return a list with all the outputs
20:46 tauntaun: First, why did you put the 'cdr' in there?
20:46 john____: To prevent a divide by zero error
20:46 tauntaun: think carefully; that error can't occurr.
20:47 tauntaun: (occur*)
20:47 tauntaun: You're dividing 0 *by* x, not the other way around.
20:47 tauntaun: oh, wait.
20:47 tauntaun: I misunderstood.
20:48 tauntaun: Fine, you can leave the 'cdr' in there, but it would be better style to put it in 'range' instead.  But anyhow, we'll live with that for now.
20:48 john____: Ok
20:48 tauntaun: Now you want '(/ x)' to be an operator that divides by x, right?
20:48 john____: Ehhh
20:48 john____: I want x to be divided by the members of the list
20:49 tauntaun: Yes, sorry.
20:49 tauntaun: But '(/ x)' is not an operator; it's a function *call*.
20:49 john____: ok
20:49 tauntaun: Go to your Scheme prompt and type '(/ 5)'.
20:49 john____: 1/5
20:50 tauntaun: Right. That's a number, not an operator.
20:50 john____: Ok
20:51 tauntaun: What is the Scheme way of constructing an operator (a function)?
20:51 john____: (define (fcn argument)( definition))
20:51 tauntaun: Close.
20:51 tauntaun: That's the way to create a function *and* give it a global name.
20:52 tauntaun: How do you do just the first part, just create a function?
20:52 john____: lambda?
20:52 tauntaun: Yes!
20:52 john____: So something like (lambda (x) (/ x))?
20:53 tauntaun: You're getting closer.
20:53 john____: ok :) good
20:53 tauntaun: When a lambda is given to map, what is the first arg of that lambda supposed to be?
20:53 john____: umm
20:54 john____: could it be the car of my list?
20:54 tauntaun: You've got the right idea, though you're expressing it awkwardly (IMO).
20:54 john____: Which means what?
20:54 tauntaun: What does this evaluate to: (map (lambda (x) x) '(1 2 3 4))
20:55 john____: (1 2 3 4)
20:55 tauntaun: Ok, what does this evaluate to: (map (lambda (x) (* 2 x)) '(1 2 3 4))
20:56 john____: (2 4 6 8)
20:56 tauntaun: Ok, what does this evaluate to: (map (lambda (n) (* 2 n)) '(1 2 3 4))
20:56 john____: (2 4 6 8)
20:57 tauntaun: What does this evaluate to: (map (lambda (i) (* 2 i)) '(1 2 3 4))
20:57 tauntaun: (Do you get the idea?)
20:57 john____: Yes I do... So I'm going to try this really quick here...
20:59 john____: tauntaun,
20:59 tauntaun: here
20:59 john____: Still failing
20:59 tauntaun: Ok, what does this evaluate to: (map (lambda (n) (* x n)) '(1 2 3 4))
21:00 john____: error
21:00 tauntaun: right, but why.
21:00 john____: mismatched identifier x
21:00 john____: because x is undefined
21:01 tauntaun: Let me make it easier.  What should this function do: (lambda (x) (map (lambda (n) (* x n)) '(1 2 3 4)))
21:02 john____: nothing until you give it something else
21:02 tauntaun: So give it the number 13.
21:02 john____: lambda (x) has nothing to do work on
21:02 tauntaun: I mean give that last function a name, like 'banana', and then call (banana 13).  What should you get?
21:03 john____: OH!
21:03 john____: (13 26 39 53)?
21:03 john____: Or something like that?
21:04 tauntaun: 52, I hope.
21:04 john____: Hahaha yea sorry im stressing a little bit, so te arithmetic machine is off in my head
21:05 tauntaun: Well, you should be able to finish it now.  Only a couple more changes are needed.
21:05 john____: Okay. Are you going far in case I need you again?
21:06 tauntaun: Not really, but I've given you all I can.  (I'm not on the PLT Racket team.)
21:06 tauntaun: Which textbook are you using?
21:06 john____: Ok. Thank you.
21:06 tauntaun: And which school are you at?
21:07 john____: The university of minnesota twin cities
21:07 tauntaun: Cool.
21:07 tauntaun: (Freezing, more like.)
21:08 tauntaun: By the way, there's an elegant way to construct the function for map.  It uses 'curry'.
21:08 tauntaun: But that's beyond the beginner level...
21:09 john____: Well, I'm definitely a beginner haha
21:09 tauntaun: What text are you using?
21:10 john____: Structure and interpretation of computer programming
21:10 tauntaun: Very good.
21:11 tauntaun: Read it well....and start your projects early :)   Good luck...
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