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05:15 Tasser: where's htdp2 again?
05:25 cpach: Tasser: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/index.html
05:26 Tasser: thanks
05:37 tauntaun: general question: is it improper to copy images off a web page and paste them into a presentation I'm about to give, even if I acknowledge the source?
05:38 tauntaun: (...and the web page declares no copyright warning)
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06:20 Lajla: I approve of any manner of copyright violation and plagiatry for the sake of education.
06:20 Lajla: In fact, I approve of any manner of copyright violation in any case.
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06:25 coyo flops into the channel
06:29 cpach: in the u.s. (and maybe other countries) there is fair use, which might apply
06:38 Lajla: cpach, that is an argumentum ad legislatum
06:43 tauntaun: thx
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07:39 mye: is there a bug / feature request tracker for racket / DrRacket ? Nothing is linked from the website.
07:42 danking: mye: I'd try the users mailing list.
07:42 danking: http://racket-lang.org/community.html
07:43 mye: danking: I think they need a bug tracker ^^. All I want to do is report that the coloring of "Determine language from source" in the lower left is annoying if you code with vertically split panes
07:44 mye: I don't want to post such a trivial thing to the list
07:49 danking: hmm
07:49 danking: Fair enough.  I think they expect everything to come through the mailing list though, trivial or not.
07:52 rapacity: mye: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/
07:52 mye: rapacity: aha
07:52 mye: they should link to it!
07:54 mye: Oh, I just learned DrRacket has that built in ...
07:54 bremner: yeah ;)
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10:26 Acek: hi, i was starting to use the iterations from racket (for, for/list) and suddenly bumped at for/vector. Racket only doesnt seem to recognize the for/vector, although its also in #lang base?
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11:07 offby1: rudybot: doc for/vector
11:07 rudybot: *offby1: your racket sandbox is ready
11:07 rudybot: *offby1: not found in any library's documentation: for/vector
11:07 offby1: dunno what #lang base is
11:07 offby1: Acek: I suppose you could use (list->vector (for/list ..))
11:08 offby1: rudybot: (banner)
11:08 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to Racket v5.0.1.\n"
11:08 offby1: Acek: it might be very new -- rudybot doesn't seem to have it, but 5.1 dodes
11:08 offby1: does
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11:25 Agari: IIRC for/vector and other iteration forms were added in 5.0.2
11:26 offby1: august 2010
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12:41 coyo: gawds, racket is awesome
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13:03 samth: coyo, glad you like it
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13:08 coyo: ^^
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14:05 Demosthenes: gah! that's so frustrating...
14:05 Demosthenes: in CL, the error logger i used would jsut concatenate parameters, and pretty print as much as it could
14:05 Demosthenes: drives me nuts having silly things like "boolean is not a string" with a logger :P
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15:17 feep: hi
15:17 feep: trying to get a HTTP response out of a webserver so I (display (format "GET / HTTP/1.1~a~a~a~a" #\return #\newline #\return #\newline) c-out)
15:17 feep: (c-out is connected to a local running netcat on that port)
15:17 feep: the netcat doesn't print anything.
15:17 feep: is there a flush or something necessary?
15:18 jeapostrophe: feep: what happened when you tried?
15:18 feep: jeapostrophe: nothing.
15:18 feep: it doesn't seem to send anything at all.
15:18 feep: passes through the line and hangs on a later read-line.
15:18 jeapostrophe: then i guess flush-output doesn't help
15:18 feep: trying anyway
15:19 feep: actually
15:19 feep: yes it does.
15:19 feep: jeapostrophe: what's up with that? why is it buffered by default? o.o
15:19 feep: hm, probably enough to just close after sending
15:20 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch
15:20 jeapostrophe: read the tcp-connect docs, 5th paragraph, it talks about the buffering
15:20 feep: ooh, neat.
15:21 feep: It's probably a better idea to make it unbuffered by default, though, since when you write to a handle, you expect it to be sent immediately.
15:21 feep: jus' saying. thanks anyways.
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15:47 feep: (because BSD sockets are blocking by default, Law of Least Astonishment, yadda yadda)
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16:03 jonrafkind: carleastlund, I think version numbers should be used to exactly specify backwards incompatible changes
16:04 carleastlund: jonrafkind, it sounds nice on paper, but is horrible in practice.
16:04 jonrafkind: where does it go wrong?
16:04 carleastlund: If someone did actual research -- I'm talking published paper or thesis here -- on it, it might be made into something good.  But this back of the envelope stuff has just been terrible.
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16:05 jonrafkind: it seems to me if i care about a certain semantics then I dont want an upgrade to suddenly break those semantics
16:05 carleastlund: The version numbers get stupid.  8:18?  Dracula is in maybe a 2.0 state, in terms of how normal people use version numbers.  And I have no idea if my choice of compatibility points is really accurate.  I just guess.
16:05 jonrafkind: well.. why is it difficult to know when you've made a backwards incompatible change?
16:06 carleastlund: jonrafkind, I agree that enforcing compatible upgrades is a good idea.  I just don't know why a version number is the right mechanism for that.  Version numbers do not really mean that.
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16:06 carleastlund: jonrafkind, I hope the phrase "halting problem" is sufficient to answer your question.
16:06 jonrafkind: api change or something like that is backwards incompatible
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16:06 jonrafkind: if you add features, thats not backwards incompatible
16:06 carleastlund: Oh but it can be!
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16:07 jonrafkind: i suppose in the limit a machine can't say if a library is backwards incompatible, but as the library author it shouldn't be too hard
16:07 carleastlund: If you add a feature, and that feature is a new export from a module, you suddenly become incompatible with any client that already imports something by that name.  This has come up numerous times with real planet packages.
16:07 jonrafkind: well I suppose
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16:07 carleastlund: You don't have to suppose.  I'm telling you.
16:07 jonrafkind: i tend to use prefix-in for planet packages so i dont run into that issue
16:07 jonrafkind: i mean i suppose its true for people who are less careful
16:09 carleastlund: I have run into many, many problems with the Planet versioning system, and at one point sent a message to the list detailing a catch 22 wherein neither following nor ignoring Planet's version semantics results in maintainable software.  In the long run, the Planet versioning system is too strict and yields lots of unnecessary package conflicts.
16:10 jonrafkind: wheres that email
16:10 carleastlund: I'll have to look it up.  It was a number of years ago, but you make a good point, I should bring it up.
16:11 jonrafkind: the point about namespaces?
16:11 jonrafkind: in fact i would go a step further and say all planet packages should have a default prefix-in of the package name
16:13 samth: jonrafkind, in racket that isn't true
16:13 jonrafkind: whats not true
16:13 carleastlund: Yeah, that's just not feasible.  Racket/Scheme naming conventions do not behave well with constant prefix-in.
16:18 jeapostrophe: carleastlund: but what do we do instead?
16:18 jeapostrophe: give up?
16:19 jeapostrophe: it seems versions can be strict, vague, or meaningless
16:19 jeapostrophe: you say no to strict
16:19 carleastlund: I say meaningless.  STRONG vote for meaningless.
16:19 jeapostrophe: i'm puritanically so vague = meaningless
16:20 carleastlund: If we want to encode compatibility somehow, a string of numbers and dots does not seem like the right way to me.
16:21 jeapostrophe: it seems like the only real choice is an infinite set with an order and a monotonically increasing sequence of elements
16:21 jeapostrophe: one for incompatible and one for compatible
16:21 jeapostrophe: a pair of naturals fits the bill well
16:21 jeapostrophe: you disagree?
16:22 carleastlund: Bah.  How about, you can upload metadata telling Planet that package X is a suitable automatic upgrade for package Y, and let Planet work out the transitive closure of that?
16:24 jonrafkind: how would you name such a package
16:24 carleastlund: Any darn way I wanted.
16:25 jonrafkind: do you have any conventions in mind other than version numbers?
16:26 (quit) Sgeo: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
16:26 carleastlund: For Racket, I would label the most recent release "Racket 5.1", for instance.  What's the semantics of the "5", the ".", and the "1"?  Ask Matthew, I guess.
16:28 jonrafkind: so whats in a name.. nothing
16:28 jonrafkind: whats an alternative convention?
16:28 carleastlund: Off the top of my head, I would let packages be identified by a [non-empty] list of strings; the most common use of which would probably be (Name, Version), but all strings would be uninterpreted.  Then the package maintainers are obligated to specify the level of compatibility among their various releases, thus determining their own semantics for upgrades.
16:28 carleastlund: In otherwords, build a compatibility graph.  Nodes and edges.  No need for numbers or strings.
16:29 carleastlund: jonrafkind, the email thread I had in mind earlier was "How best to use PLaneT" on the Racket users mailing list, back when it was the PLT Scheme list.  I have not found a URL for it yet.
16:30 carleastlund: http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2008-October/027690.html
16:32 jonrafkind: so you wanted instaservlet to say (1 7) depends on plt scheme 4.1?
16:32 jonrafkind: and by virtue of using 4.0.3 then (1 7) is an incompatible change for you?
16:32 (quit) Agari: Quit: Quit
16:34 carleastlund: That depends on whether PLT Scheme 4.1 and 4.0.3 are "compatible" with each other.  I'm allowing the possibility that they might be.  Jay's proposal seems to me to suggest that (a) 4.0.3 cannot exist, because we only get two numbers, and (b) nothing can be compatible with both Racket [PLT Scheme] 4.2 and Racket 5.0.
16:34 (part) jesusito: "ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"
16:34 jonrafkind: it seems like that sort of dependancy is unique to changing the racket vm. otherwise if I use packages A and B, and B does a minor upgrade but depends on A also, and A does a major upgrade, I can use A (1 0) and B can use A (2 0) at the same time
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16:40 carleastlund: I'm not even talking about "at the same time".  I'm saying if I write code that imports something from the new package system, don't I need to provide a version number?  If aspects of the Racket core go on planet, do they become explicitly versioned too?  And if so, does that mean when we release a new major version, ALL programs have to be edited to require racket/6.0 instead of racket/5.x or they break?
16:41 jeapostrophe: my goal for the new system is to separate require module from require from package
16:41 jeapostrophe: so you wouldn't change every program to say #lang racket/6.0
16:41 jeapostrophe: instead, you would change the package spec to depend on racket/6.0
16:41 jeapostrophe: if you wanted new stuff
16:42 carleastlund: Okay, so then every package spec has to change?
16:42 jeapostrophe: i'd hope that we could use that to formally provide backwards compatibility in the language
16:42 carleastlund: Same problem in different words.
16:42 jeapostrophe: the difference is whether you change 60 files or 1
16:43 carleastlund: No, the difference is whether you change 60,000 files or 600.
16:43 carleastlund: You've gone from way, WAY too many, to just way too many.
16:43 carleastlund: Your number was "per package", but I don't care about that.  Just about everything I use depends on at least half a dozen packages.  I'd have to wait for every single one of them to be updated.
16:43 jeapostrophe: but if a program does not work in racket 6.0 don't you want it to stay with racket 5.0?
16:44 jeapostrophe: we could have a program to do the sed for you, but shouldn't you test it first?
16:44 carleastlund: I do not want to have to wait for some other maintainer to check if their program still works.  I want to be able to try it out right now and if it works, never bother them about it.
16:44 carleastlund: Otherwise all our efforts at maintaining backwards compatibility in our language are largely moot.
16:44 jonrafkind: but then you also have to figure out when some libraries won't work, and it seems thats a huge pain
16:46 jonrafkind: maybe the solution is what robby alludes too in that email thread, if a package has a set of tests that pass in a new version of racket then the package is likely to work
16:46 jeapostrophe: carleastlund: it seems like you do not want any guarantees from the packaging system, you just want a big "soup"?
16:46 carleastlund: A lot of people use cce/scheme.plt, and can continue to use it on PLT Scheme 4.2 and Racket 5.0-1.  No one had to wait for me to upload anything new just because the version number changed, and if I upload a bug fix, users of all those versions benefit at once.
16:46 carleastlund: jeapostrophe: That is not my intention at all.
16:47 carleastlund: I want to avoid the problems with Planet that have caused those of us who maintain significant software there to want to tear our hair out at every step.  I am happy with enforcing anything that does not constantly get in my way.
16:47 jeapostrophe: what would you have enforced? because it seems like the only thing i'm proposed to enforce is dependencies and you say no to that
16:48 carleastlund: But I feel the current Planet version system has gotten in my way several different ways, each many times, and I'm not sure what it has ever bought me.  At all.  I do not trust one bit that the numbers on those packages in any real way corresponds to compatibility or incompatibility.
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16:49 carleastlund: No, you want to enforce parsing of version numbers.  I want to enforce dependencies, but I have yet to see you demonstrate a correlation between your proposed compatibility metrics and actual semantic software compatibility.
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16:50 carleastlund: If you want a more well-formed proposal from me, I will be happy to provide you with the URL of the Fortress language spec.  I'd love to have that module system.
16:50 carleastlund: .../package/distribution system
16:51 jeapostrophe: You two have mentioned that for eons but never show anyone or describe it in detail
16:52 carleastlund: Show anyone?  It's public!  Go download it!
16:52 jeapostrophe: Re parsing version numbers: I don't think Racket code is analyzable so we have to have something externally specified that is a proxy for compatibllity. what code that be but numbers? (i do find your upgrade graph interesting though)
16:52 jeapostrophe: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=fortress+package+system
16:52 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/674dke4
16:52 carleastlund: http://www.google.com/search?q=fortress+language+specification&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
16:53 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/6clwu2t
16:53 jeapostrophe: 2000 pages of syntax?
16:53 jeapostrophe: what do you want me to read?
16:54 jeapostrophe: the 4 pages about components?
16:54 jeapostrophe: what are you talking about?
16:55 jeapostrophe: for the first time, sam sent me an unpublished paper on friday, i'll read that and see what it says
16:55 jeapostrophe: i'm surprised there is no succinct explanation you can point me to
16:56 jeapostrophe: i gtg to a meeting, ttyl, <3 you sorry for my pissyness
16:56 carleastlund: Okay, that's probably the best thing.  Sorry, I have read that unpublished paper, and I know the only published-in-any-sense version of it is in the Fortress spec.  If nothing good is in the spec, I have perhaps been too trusting that they put useful info in there.
16:59 jonrafkind: carleastlund, i dont see how the fortress specification on component solves any of the issues you have laid out
16:59 jonrafkind: am I missing something
17:00 carleastlund: jonrafkind, no, it seems their spec is missing like the entire description of their package system, and I apologize for pointing it out as if it was helpful
17:01 jonrafkind: oh ok
17:01 jonrafkind: is the package system somewhere?
17:01 jonrafkind: i dont recall that existing (nor anyone talking about it) when i was at sun
17:03 carleastlund: I don't know if they ever implemented it.  I just know the design was really good.  It had semantics for linking and upgrading and all kinds of things that made sense, and there were no arbitrary rules like version number comparisons.  But you could implement version number comparisons for a specific package if you, as maintainer, wanted that to be your semantics.
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17:10 samth: jeapostrophe, did you see the paper i sent you?
17:12 jeapostrophe: samth: i will read it tomorrow, i think
17:12 samth: jeapostrophe, that will hopefully clear up what it is carl and i are talking about wrt fortress
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18:11 wwall: hello
18:11 jonrafkind: hello
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18:11 wwall: some question - where i can see any example of interpreter language like qbasic?
18:12 jonrafkind: you mean you want to see a language which is interpreted?
18:12 wwall: yes
18:12 jonrafkind: there are many simple scheme interpreters
18:12 jonrafkind: do you want to see an interpreter?
18:13 wwall: not any
18:13 jonrafkind: so you want to see scheme?
18:13 wwall: interpreter with lexer and parser
18:13 wwall: example of usage alogs of flex and bison in scheme
18:14 wwall: alogs = analogs
18:15 jonrafkind: i guess you could look at chibi scheme: http://code.google.com/p/chibi-scheme/
18:15 jonrafkind: do you want to see such things implemented in scheme?
18:15 wwall: yes
18:17 jonrafkind: well you can look at this at least, it doesnt use flex or bison: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/
18:17 jonrafkind: i have a ruby compiler written in racket, it uses peg instead of flex/bison to parse
18:18 jonrafkind: well there is a javascript compiler on planet..
18:18 jonrafkind: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/dherman/javascript.plt/9/2/
18:19 wwall: in this no example of usage flex
18:19 jonrafkind: right
18:20 jonrafkind: i dont know of anyone that uses the lex tools that come with racket
18:20 jonrafkind: but im sure there are some people
18:20 wwall: analog flex in racket exists. i don't remeber name of this project
18:21 jonrafkind: that javascript thing uses some home made lexer
18:21 jonrafkind: http://docs.racket-lang.org/parser-tools/index.html?q=parser%20tools
18:21 jonrafkind: you mean this?
18:21 wwall: o!
18:21 wwall: yes
18:22 jonrafkind: you could try asking on the racket list for users of that library and see if they have example code
18:23 wwall: ok. thanks
18:24 mithos28: wwall: there is an example calculator for the parser tools that comes with racket
18:25 wwall: i see it
18:25 wwall: and algol example so
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21:43 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 83b00c0 (1 files in 1 dirs): adjust the module-lexer so it explicitly notes malformed #lang lines before going into "no-lang-line" mode ... - http://bit.ly/eUIJeF
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22:30 dylanvee: Anyone there? :) I'm working on a school project and I could use some help understanding Racket.
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22:34 offby1: exam
22:36 dylanvee: ?
22:36 offby1: [22:32] <test_> test
22:36 offby1: :)
22:41 dylanvee: lol
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23:02 Lajla: offby1,
23:02 Lajla: Shouldn't you find more useless uses for continuations
23:05 offby1: why, yes; yes, I should.
23:05 offby1 runs off to find more useless uses for continuations
23:05 Lajla: Most obedient
23:21 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28
23:22 (join) mithos28
23:32 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28
23:45 (quit) em: Quit: As a wild ass in the desert go I forth to my work
23:46 (join) emma
23:48 (quit) mwolfe: Quit: Konversation terminated!
23:48 (join) mwolfe
23:51 (nick) emma -> em
23:54 (quit) mwolfe: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
23:58 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 276 seconds