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15:13 Demosthenes: so #lang racket vs #lang racket/load, i've split a large program into multiple files, but i'd rather "include" them than treat them as a module with new namespace...
15:14 Demosthenes: seems that the different between racket and racket/load...
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15:14 Demosthenes: but is it kosher to have #lang twice, once for real external modules, and then again w/ load to include my files?
15:15 samth: Demosthenes, racket/load is primarily for quick experimentation
15:15 samth: you should use `require' and multiple files written in #lang racket
15:15 Demosthenes: samth: yeah, i just had to split for clarity...
15:15 (nick) lucian_ -> lucian
15:16 Demosthenes: the issue i had there was suddenly i had to re-require database modules, and such..
15:16 Demosthenes: or other portions of the program, internally started getting stacks of requirements because they were smaller portions
15:16 samth: i don't understand
15:16 Demosthenes: no one split is really a full module unto itself.
15:16 Demosthenes: i split for legibility
15:16 samth: what is a full module?
15:17 samth: anything can be a module, even just one definition
15:17 Demosthenes: i'm sorry, i still think in perl terms ;]
15:17 Demosthenes: i think of a module as having a definite namespace, providing (exporting) specific items and performing one encapsulated function or functions...
15:17 Demosthenes: like most of the planet libs
15:17 samth: that's what modules in racket do too
15:17 Demosthenes: ok...
15:18 Demosthenes: i split not to make modules, just to use multiple files for sanity
15:18 samth: so i'm still confused as to what your problem is
15:18 Demosthenes: i need #include, not modules.
15:18 samth: those should be modules
15:18 samth: no, you never need #include
15:18 Demosthenes: the dependency chains started becoming a mess when they are setup as modules...
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15:18 Demosthenes: suddenly, a split had to require everything the main prog required too...
15:18 Demosthenes: etc.
15:19 samth: why is that a problem?
15:19 Demosthenes: massive duplication
15:20 Demosthenes: thats why i'm trying to differentiate between the #include and module idea
15:20 samth: massive duplication of what?
15:20 samth: how many modules are we talking about?
15:21 Demosthenes: i've split one big file into about 20 smaller ones in 2 subdirs...
15:21 Demosthenes: its really a logical stub layout :P
15:21 samth: that sounds like a good refactoring
15:21 Demosthenes: because i see them as all part of one program, (not that i'm using bulk global variables or anything), i'd rather they just load into the main namespace after the root program requires all the libs
15:22 Demosthenes: atm, each module has to re-require every lib, and other modules.
15:22 Demosthenes: and yeah, i'm rapidly prototyping... i may later go back and make contracts and modularize things when i see the how the final design has grown...
15:23 (nick) abbe -> everyone
15:23 Demosthenes: so... can i mix racket and racket/load in the root file, racket for real modules, and racket/load to include my parts?
15:23 (nick) everyone -> abbe
15:23 samth: if you want to abstract over require, use a macro
15:24 samth: you should not use racket/load (or `include') to develop software
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15:28 Demosthenes: that's like saying goto is evil. ;]
15:28 Demosthenes: *strike!* two sacred cows in one afternoon ;]
15:29 Demosthenes: looks like i can't mix, its not valid in the same file, but the behavior i wanted works with /load... for now.
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15:41 samth: Demosthenes, i'm still having a hard time believing that having to require a couple extra files is such a burden
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16:00 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 137d96c (21 files in 8 dirs): multi-column support in list-box%
16:00 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 4311f34...137d96c - http://bit.ly/gyKTDG
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16:50 samth: jeapostrophe, drdr saves the day :)
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17:39 jasond``: does anyone know of a good "repeat" macro?
17:41 samth: (for ([_ (in-range times)]) body)
17:41 samth: or:
17:41 samth: (define-syntax-rule (repeat n body ...) (for ([x (in-range n)]) (let () body ...)))
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17:44 jasond``: thanks.
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19:35 SinDoc: In (syntax-case stx () (pattern result-expr)), is there a way to construct a pattern programmatically?
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19:35 samth: SinDoc, no
19:35 samth: but you could write a macro that expands into that
19:36 samth: or you could destructure the syntax object programmatically
19:37 SinDoc: samth: Thanks. I'm actually writing a macro that generates syntax-case but the patterns come from runtime;
19:38 Lajla: Macro expansions happen at compile time.
19:41 SinDoc: Sure
19:42 SinDoc: https://github.com/sindoc/objective-racket/blob/experiment-20110220/src/objective-racket/check.rkt
19:42 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/4s5p6q6
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19:43 SinDoc: In Line 57, I'm trying to fetch the pattern that's bound at runtime
19:45 Lajla: So, you're making a program that contructs a syntax-case form in S-expression form?
19:45 Lajla: You're basically automating macro writing?
19:46 SinDoc: True
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19:48 Lajla: SinDoc, and what you want is that the pattern it evaluates to is also considered as a macro for further expansion?
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19:49 tauntaun: I am tauntaun.  Feed me.
19:50 SinDoc: Lajla: the issue is that I cannot have anything that evaluates to a pattern at runtime
19:51 Lajla: SinDoc, you cannot.
19:51 Lajla: macro expansion happens at compile time.
19:51 Lajla: What happens with macro is that it re-writes the S-expressions basically before it compiles, and then compiles that.
19:51 Lajla: The S-expressions typically no longer exist at run-time.
19:52 SinDoc: Lajla: Thanks; Talking about it actually helped
19:53 Lajla: SinDoc, to be fair, your quaestion was kind of vague. =P
19:53 SinDoc: I'll try to generate a (define-for-syntax 'the-pattern)
19:55 SinDoc: Lajla: Sorry, I'll give more context in the future then
19:55 Lajla: It's okay.
19:55 Lajla: Because inside all that chaos
19:55 Lajla: I will find your mind.
19:55 Lajla: And learn a little bit more.
19:59 SinDoc: ;)
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21:41 SinDoc: Lajla: Earlier issue is resolved https://github.com/sindoc/objective-racket/blob/experiment-20110220/src/objective-racket/check.rkt
21:41 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/4uotjsu
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21:46 SinDoc: I understand that in order have syntax-highlighting for Racket on GitHub, a certain FOSS project should provide support for it, right?
21:52 SinDoc: i.e. http://pygments.org/
21:56 Lajla: SinDoc, then if you could resolve it, I  am not sure I ever understood your issue correctly.
21:57 SinDoc: Lajla: No, you were right
21:57 Lajla: SinDoc, then how could you solve it.
21:57 Lajla: As far as I know, you cannot let macros depend on runtime info.
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21:58 SinDoc: Now, I manage a compile-time state, whereas before, I wanted to fetch the state at runtime
21:58 Lajla: SinDoc, ah
21:58 Lajla: yes, then it is possible.
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22:05 SinDoc: Had we been allowed to dynamically construct patterns, I would have been able to manage the state at runtime;
22:08 tauntaun , turning pedant for an intolerable moment, notes the split infinitive.
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22:55 Lajla: SinDoc, well, how would that even work?
22:55 Lajla: Macros work by rewriting the source code before compilation
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22:58 SinDoc: Lajla: By generating something that evaluates to a pattern consumed by syntax-case
22:59 Lajla: SinDoc, yes, but runtime information is only known after the source code rewriting is done.
22:59 Lajla: After all, it is only known at run time.
23:00 Lajla: So how could this in any way be used to influence how the source code transformation is done.
23:02 SinDoc: I'm not saying otherwise. Let's say I'd generate the following: (syntax-case form () (an-id-that-evals-to-pattern #'(foo)))
23:03 SinDoc: which is possible
23:03 Lajla: Technically it's not, but I guess what you mean
23:03 SinDoc: the problem, though is that we cannot bind anything at runtime that would evaluate to a pattern
23:03 Lajla: That is true.
23:04 SinDoc: That's why I dropped and fetched the pattern at compile-time
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23:05 SinDoc: i.e. dropped the idea