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01:06 jonrafkind: Bjarne Stroustrup : Not as much as I had hoped. Students generally have a somewhat shallow view of programming and programming languages. Bringing students (both undergraduates and graduates) up to date with modern problems and techniques is hard and time consuming. Also, academic language research tends to be rather far removed from practical systems building. I guess that the main effect of my academic and educational work has been an increased
01:06 jonrafkind: appreciation of the needs and limitations of novices (of all backgrounds). You can't just expect them to learn all they need before starting to program; instead, you have to work on giving them sufficient help so that they can manage until they learn more. It is important that the initial "sub-languages" that a novice can master in a reasonable time (weeks or months, rather than years) don't trap the students into a 1970s or a 1980s view of progra
01:06 jonrafkind: mming.
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04:04 lewis1711: "expand: unbound identifier in module in: ffi-lib" what module is ffi-lib defined in? (the manual makes no mention of needing to load a module to use it)
04:08 lewis1711: oh right there it is, in the link above 1. Overview :P
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06:24 lewis1711: when one does ctrl-t in drracket, what command is actually preformed?
06:24 lewis1711 is setting up vim
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07:24 _p4bl0: lewis1711: I think you made a typo, you wrote "vim" instead of "emacs", what type of keyboard do you use? I don't see how that's possible on qwerty or azerty keyboards. ;-)
07:25 lewis1711: huh? ctrl-t isn't possible on qwerty keyboards?
07:28 _p4bl0: lewis1711: no I was refering to the vim/emacs typo ^^
07:28 lewis1711: I...don't get it
07:29 bremner: don't worry. Humour is the hardest thing to learn in a second language.
07:30 lewis1711: ...I see
07:30 bremner: subtitle: bremner made a joke about lewis1711 being from NZ
07:30 lewis1711: yes I am using vim. this computer is too old for Eight Hundred Megabytes And Constantly Swapping
07:31 bremner: you miss out on geiser then, which seems pretty cool. Oh well.
07:31 bremner: lewis1711: does DrRacket run OK?
07:32 lewis1711: not really
07:32 lewis1711: doesn't seem like the most polished piece of software. especially when using the FFI
07:33 lewis1711: anyway, how does one run a racket file and then drop to the interpreter on the command line?
07:33 bremner: racket --help should get you started
07:34 lewis1711: been there
07:34 bremner: I guess you probably want racket --load  ?
07:34 lewis1711: tried $racket -i -f file.rkt
07:35 lewis1711: nope, that doesn't do it
07:35 lewis1711: hmm
07:36 lewis1711: tried "racket -i --load main.rkt"
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07:36 bremner: racket --load foo.rkt -i  works for me (TM)
07:36 lewis1711: which drops into an interpreter that doesn;t recognise anything in the file
07:36 lewis1711: humm
07:37 bremner: oops. spoke too soon.
07:37 lewis1711: bremner: can you actually use any identifiers in your file?
07:37 lewis1711: ah
07:37 clklein: lewis1711: I'm not sure I understand what you want, but try "racket -i -t your-program.rkt"
07:38 lewis1711: clklein: whatever it is dr-racket does with ctrl-t
07:38 lewis1711: interprets then drops you to the repl
07:38 lewis1711: and ok
07:38 clklein: I think -i -t is what you want then
07:38 lewis1711: clklein: that works a treat. ty
07:39 clklein: np
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12:03 bremner: So what is the difference between gracket and racket in 5.0.99.6? It seems racket can do at least some graphical stuff.
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12:18 stamourv: bremner: I don't think there's much of a difference anymore
12:19 bremner: gracket is 19 bytes bigger ;)
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12:48 stamourv: bremner: 19 bytes, that a large #\g...
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13:43 eli: bremner: gracket is still needed for things like windows.
13:44 eli: (I think that OSX needs it too.)
13:44 jonrafkind: why is that exactly?
13:44 eli: On windows if you use racket you'd get a dos window, whereas gracket just works like a windowed application.
13:45 jonrafkind: oh, but you can still run gui programs with just racket right?
13:50 bremner: so is there still some point to gracket on linux?
13:52 bremner: jonrafkind: oh, by the way, I pushed a fix for the /nonexistant problem you were having; the last couple commits on branch snapshots
13:52 jonrafkind: oh ok
13:52 bremner: nothing you didn't think, I suspect.
13:52 jonrafkind: I almost got 5.0.2 to build in pbuilder btu I got some stream error from plai/mutator
13:53 bremner: weird.
13:53 jonrafkind: do you use pbuilder?
13:53 jonrafkind: for now ij ust commented out building the docs for plai
13:56 eli: jonrafkind: Yes, but the DOS window would make it unacceptable.
13:56 eli: Also, on OSX I think that it's a .app thing.
13:57 eli: bremner: Probably not, but it should be distributed still since portable scripts would fail without it.
13:57 jonrafkind: i mean its acceptable to me, i like to use just plain 'racket' on the command line
13:58 eli: If you run stuff from a command line anyway, then you'd probably not see any difference at all.
13:59 eli: You might even prefer racket, so that debugging printouts go in the same shell rather than open a new window.
14:00 eli: jonrafkind: BTW, was this the reason you pinged me yesterday?
14:00 jonrafkind: uh, running racket in windows? no
14:00 jonrafkind: it was about the nonexistant error I got from building racket for the ubuntu ppa
14:01 jonrafkind: but it was due to setting HOME=/nonexistant in the debain makefile
14:01 jonrafkind: but it might still be a bug in racket, something in the build is writing to $HOME
14:04 bremner: eli: sure, I was just wondering if it would make sense for gracket to be a link to racket on linux
14:05 bremner: jonrafkind: I use sbuild, which should be roughly the same. I can try pbuilder though.
14:06 jonrafkind: right now gracket starts up the gui repl, I don't know if anyone really needs that
14:06 jonrafkind: i guess its sort of legacy
14:06 bremner: oh, I see. Well, somebody might like that.
14:06 bremner: heh. friendly startup message ;)
14:12 eli: bremner: I'd ask on the list whether it could be a symlink on linux -- but I *really* would not want any debian/ubuntu/whatever diverges from our builds, it makes some really bad bug reports where it's unclear whether it's ours or something as a result of the specific hacks.
14:12 bremner: eli: oh, sure, I wouldn't do that on my own.
14:12 eli: jonrafkind: It's probably the check whether you have any user-specific collections to compile -- and requiring that a compilation works with an inexistent home directory is probably a good idea overall.
14:13 eli: I still think that the -U thing should be the default for the `make install' compilation.
14:13 bremner: -U isn't enough though, because some of the collects want to make temporary directories underneath $HOME
14:14 eli: bremner: Huh?  Which one?
14:14 bremner: I think they might not ship in the release tarballs...
14:15 eli: If you're talking about planet libraries -- then those are installed in your home dir to begin with.
14:15 eli: None of the core set should do anything in your home directory with a `-U'.
14:16 eli: Even without it, there is just one "offender" -- the handin-server docs, and that shouldn't be included in our source disribution.
14:16 bremner: scribblings/scheme/scheme.scrbl for example
14:16 eli: It uses $HOME?  How?
14:16 bremner: WORKER ERROR make-directory: cannot make directory: /nonexistant/
14:17 bremner: one, sec, I found this before.
14:17 eli: Try to use `-j 1' so there's no parallel-build issues.
14:17 bremner: ah, that might be it.
14:18 eli: If the parallel build tries to create that, then *please* do shout on the mailing list!
14:20 eli tries
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14:26 bremner: eli: I can try, but -j1 takes about an hour to build on this machine.
14:29 eli: bremner: I'm trying it now.
14:34 eli: bremner: Did it fail for you when it compiled, or when it built the docs?
14:38 bremner: Just building docs. Actually, I'm not sure if the docs failed to build, or just print nasty messages. I will check when this build finishes.  At the moment I'm building without -U; I suppose a more interesting test would be with -U.
14:38 jonrafkind: whats -U ?
14:39 bremner: --no-user
14:39 bremner: for raco setup
14:39 jonrafkind: oh ok
14:39 jonrafkind: hm didnt matthew want to make that change recently?
14:40 jonrafkind: i thought maybe he already made it
14:43 eli: bremner: I just had a build finish fine -- with HOME set to /missing, with a `-j 3', and with a `-U'.  So things look fine.
14:44 eli: (That's using the current master.)
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14:44 bremner: eli: great. The build finishes for me too. There are just these worrying messages. Do you have messages about make-directory ?
14:45 eli: No, none that I can remember.
14:46 eli: I didn't try to scroll back far enough though.
14:46 eli: (Already closed that window and nuked the directory.)
14:48 jonrafkind: eli, you can build the whole thing in 20 minutes?
14:48 eli: jonrafkind: Whatever it took, I didn't time it.
14:48 eli: That's with `-j 3'.
14:49 eli: (I have four cores, and I like to actually use the machine so I leave one free...)
14:49 jonrafkind: the slow part for me is building the docs
14:49 clklein: jonrafkind: Robby's 8 core machine does a clean build in something like 15 minutes.
14:49 clklein: (including the docs)
14:49 jonrafkind: wow
14:49 jonrafkind: are docs parallel?
14:49 clklein: I think so.
14:49 jonrafkind: on this dual core xeon im using it takes something like an hour
15:07 bremner: eli: on my 4 core with hyperthreading, I find 7 threads still leaves the machine fairly responsive.
15:08 bremner: it seems not to be complete BS this hyperthreading, somewhat to my surprise.
15:21 jonrafkind: cp: cannot stat `debian/tmp/usr/bin': No such file or directory
15:21 jonrafkind: dh_install: cp -a debian/tmp/usr/bin debian/racket//usr/ returned exit code 1
15:21 jonrafkind: bleh what is this
15:21 jonrafkind: bremner, any idea?
15:23 bremner: that is very odd.
15:23 bremner: pbuilder again?
15:23 jonrafkind: yea
15:24 jonrafkind: it looks like its trying to install to the debian/ directory or something
15:24 bremner: that part is normal, that is how things are staged before the .debs are built
15:24 jonrafkind: ok
15:26 bremner: it looks like the racket install into debian/tmp didn't go right.
15:30 bremner: jonrafkind: do you see a line like /usr/bin/make  -C ./build  install DESTDIR=/build/bremner-racket_5.0.99.6+100~gbe6ba89-1-amd64-_hkLtc/racket-5.0.99.6+100~gbe6ba89/debian/tmp/  in your build log. for "like" defined appropriately ;)
15:31 bremner: so make -c ./build install DESTDIR=$blah/debian/tmp
15:31 jonrafkind: hm
15:31 jonrafkind: let me paste the last part of the build
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15:34 jonrafkind: bremner, http://pastebin.com/NG45cnpp
15:35 eli: bremner: Might be due to a really old setup I have on this machine -- it's an F7.
15:36 bremner: jonrafkind: for me, the relevant part is about 1000 lines before that.
15:36 jonrafkind: oh ok hold on
15:37 jonrafkind: thank god I use a 20,000 line buffer :)
15:39 jonrafkind: DEB_MAKE_CHECK_TARGET unset, not running checks
15:39 jonrafkind: CFLAGS="-g" CXXFLAGS="" HOME=/tmp PLT_SETUP_OPTIONS="-j 1" /usr/bin/make  -C ./build  install DESTDIR=/tmp/buildd/racket-5.0.2/debian/racket/
15:39 bremner: hmm. well, that explains why dh_install fails.
15:40 jonrafkind: the HOME=/tmp ?
15:40 bremner: normally when you make multiple binary packages, upstream build installs into debian/tmp, and dh_install grabs stuff from there.
15:40 bremner: no, the DESTDIR=
15:41 jonrafkind: ah
15:41 jonrafkind: so who sets that
15:42 bremner: good question. I guess CDBS. But it's not like you changed a lot in the packaging, is it?
15:42 jonrafkind: right
15:42 jonrafkind: I think the only thing I changed was control and the changelog
15:43 bremner: what did you change in control? did you eliminate some binary packages?
15:44 jonrafkind: yea I may have, let me see
15:44 jonrafkind: I think I did that because initially I was building for 5.1.0 so I just wanted to build the racket binary and leave out gracket or something
15:45 bremner: CDBS is probably being "helpful" and changing DESTDIR based on that.  You probably don't need that racket.install file if you install straight to debian/racket
15:47 bremner: but you may also not want to diverge so much. Up to you...
15:48 jonrafkind: ok i erased racket-common and whatnot, maybe I need those things?
15:49 bremner: well. If you eliminate them, you need to update some other things.
15:50 jonrafkind: ok, ill add them back to see if i can get it to work
15:50 jonrafkind: then ill tweak it later
15:52 bremner: eli, jonrafkind: ok, it turns out nonexistant home is fine, as long as you pass --no-user. Which is not unreasonable.
15:52 jonrafkind: right
15:56 jonrafkind: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@racket-lang.org/msg01895.html
15:57 jonrafkind: i dont think it was pushed, ill ping matthew
16:37 eli: Yeah, I don't think it was done.
16:38 eli: The problem is what happens with user code that needs to be recompiled.
16:38 jonrafkind: like planet packages?
16:39 jonrafkind: actually how does that work for binaries? if i just install from a .deb or something I have to manually run 'raco setup', right?
16:44 eli: Yes, planet packages, but they're not the only thing that you could install in your home directory.
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16:48 carleastlund: Anyone know how to run a non-parallel "make install"?
16:48 bremner: yes, one sec.
16:49 jonrafkind: make -j 1 install ?
16:49 bremner: you might want to set PLT_SETUP_OPTIONS="-j 1"
16:50 bremner: if make -j1 install doesn't work
16:50 carleastlund: I know that "-j 1" tells make not to run in parallel, but I don't know if setup-plt inherits that option and skips its own parallelism.
16:50 bremner: right, that is why I suggested PLT_SETUP_OPTIONS
16:54 jonrafkind: kevin says you have to use PLT_SETUP_OPTIONS
16:54 carleastlund: Well, running the build now, when it gets to the "raco setup" part we'll see if I did it right.  Thanks, guys.  :)
16:54 jonrafkind: and that hacking the makefile is hard
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17:11 jonrafkind: cp: cannot stat `debian/tmp/usr/share/racket/collects': No such file or directory
17:11 jonrafkind: dh_install: cp -a debian/tmp/usr/share/racket/collects debian/racket-common//usr/share/racket/ returned exit code 1
17:11 jonrafkind: bremner,
17:13 bremner: yup, so you miss the patch discussed in debian/README.source.
17:16 jonrafkind: hm, i dont see a patch discussed there
17:16 jonrafkind: i thought quilt was supposed to deal with patches for me?
17:19 bremner: which branch are you using? snapshots? see [patch-queue/upstream-master] in README.source
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18:35 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * b845973 (1 files in 1 dirs): disable the trace of all of the messages in the framework tests
18:35 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 0d72df4 (1 files in 1 dirs): same: draw mouse-under blob in a slightly darker color and make the scoring bonus easier to get (and worth more)
18:35 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 7808be5...0d72df4 - http://bit.ly/fH9AMq
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19:23 em: does racket have a library for making gui's with gtk?
19:25 jonrafkind: the upcoming 5.1 release will
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19:38 _p4bl0: jonrafkind: doesn't the current version already uses GTK?
19:39 jonrafkind: it uses wxwidgets, with possibly a gtk backend i dont remember
19:39 jonrafkind: but the new one uses gtk directly
19:39 bremner: and that works out ok on Windows?
19:39 jonrafkind: on windows it uses some native library there
19:40 jonrafkind: (not gtk)
19:40 bremner: ah, makes sense.
19:40 _p4bl0: jonrafkind: ah ok, because text fields already uses my gtk key theme (emacs, so C-a, C-e, C-k... are working)
19:41 jonrafkind: oh ok
19:41 jonrafkind: i think it would be nice to swap gtk for qt, but thats a lot of work
19:41 jonrafkind: and binding to qt is not so easy (being c++ and all)
19:41 _p4bl0: jonrafkind: ewww I hope they don't do that
19:42 jonrafkind: you hate qt?
19:42 _p4bl0: I don't "hate" it, but I dont' see any added value to have two such framework installed on my computers
19:42 _p4bl0: I only have gtk installed (not even gnome)
19:43 _p4bl0: plus I've always found Qt and KDE ugly
19:43 _p4bl0: but that's less important
19:43 jonrafkind: in theory it could just be another backend so you can use either gtk or qt
19:43 _p4bl0: jonrafkind: and also, I know gtk+ programming, not Qt ;-)
19:43 lewis1711: why does racket abandon s-expressions whenever function prototypes are needed? eg in the ffi (_fun _int -> _int) or in typed racket (: mag (pt -> Number)) ?
19:44 jonrafkind: a) those are still s-expressions b) because at least in the ffi case you can have multiple ->'s
19:44 jonrafkind: (_fun _int -> _int -> 5) would ignore the return value from the function and return 5
19:44 lewis1711: by that logic one could define something like this (1 + 2) as an s-expression because there are brackets around it
19:45 _p4bl0: jonrafkind: if it's just another backend it's cool to let people have the choice
19:45 lewis1711: though b is a good point
19:45 jonrafkind: technically anything surrounded by () is an s-expression, afaik
19:46 jonrafkind: those things you wrote aren't expressions so it doesn't matter what syntax is forced on them
19:46 lewis1711: how are they not expressions?
19:47 jonrafkind: well they are highly constrained at least, its not like you can do (_fun (let ([x _int]) x) ...) I think..
19:47 _p4bl0: lewis1711: an expression has a value, these are just hints to the compiler I guess
19:48 jonrafkind: no i mean they are just syntax with no inherint meaning, its upto the macro to decide what to do with them
19:48 _p4bl0: oh okay
19:48 jonrafkind: ok i was worng, you can do that (let ...) thing inside a _fun
19:48 lewis1711: I somewhat get it for the FFI, but typed racket has no excuse IMO
19:49 jonrafkind: well contracts in htdp used to be written in that style
19:49 jonrafkind: so typed racket uses the same notation
19:49 lewis1711: ::(Number pt) ;something like that would make more sense
19:49 lewis1711: ok, that showed up as a sad face
19:49 jonrafkind: heh
19:49 jonrafkind: you mean (-> pt Number) ?
19:50 jonrafkind: thats the way the contract system works actually, and I dislike it :p
19:50 lewis1711: more
19:50 lewis1711: :: (Number pt)
19:50 lewis1711: so the function prototype is still an sexpr
19:50 jonrafkind: (: mag (pt -> Number)) becomes :: (Number pt) ?
19:50 lewis1711: :: (return-type arg1 arg2 ... )
19:50 jonrafkind: i dont get it
19:51 lewis1711: humm, if you want the name in there..
19:51 lewis1711: :: (mag (Number pt))
19:51 lewis1711: man, I am pretty clever, i should really make a programming language
19:51 lewis1711: :/
19:51 jonrafkind: uh but thats not an s-expression anymore
19:51 jonrafkind: (:: (mag Number pt))) would be
19:52 lewis1711: humm, I am adding a space to avoid smiley faces
19:52 lewis1711: isn't '(1 2 3) still considered an sexpr, though?
19:52 lewis1711: that's what i am going off
19:52 _p4bl0: lewis1711: '(1 2 3) is (quote (1 2 3)), ' is a reader macro
19:53 jonrafkind: yea if you could turn :: into a reader extension it would work
19:53 _p4bl0: lewis1711: is your notation idea still working for more complicated types ?
19:53 lewis1711: _p4bl0: hit me with an example
19:54 _p4bl0: lewis1711: stuff with high order fct like foldl ?
19:54 jonrafkind: bremner, is the only change I need to set collectsdir in src/configure?
19:54 lewis1711: :: (foldl (list list))
19:54 jonrafkind: im retrying the 5.0.2 version with that one change
19:54 lewis1711: oh sorry, fold..
19:54 lewis1711: :D
19:54 _p4bl0: ^^
19:55 lewis1711: TBPF, I am not quite sure how a generic type like foldl is dealt with in typed racket
19:55 lewis1711 checks type sig in ocaml
19:55 _p4bl0: lewis1711: let's say we're working with 'a list ;)
19:56 _p4bl0: or int list if you want
19:56 lewis1711: ah
19:56 jonrafkind: bremner, looks like the only commit you have in the patch-queue/upstream-master branch
19:56 lewis1711: :: (foldl (int list))
19:56 bremner: jonrafkind: that sounds right.
19:56 bremner: lewis1711: int? be serious
19:56 lewis1711: wut
19:57 lewis1711: Integer, whatever:P
19:57 bremner: no, you miss the point of foldl
19:57 _p4bl0: lewis1711: you're signature miss the init elem and the function
19:57 bremner: and polymorphism
19:57 jonrafkind: all types are just subclasses of integers, dont you know
19:58 _p4bl0: bremner: yeah we're just discussing the shape of the type signature ;-)
19:58 lewis1711: humm
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19:58 _p4bl0: lewis1711: for instance if OCaml, List.fold_left has type ('a -> 'b -> 'a) -> 'a -> 'b list -> 'a
19:58 lewis1711: fold_left... blergh I was trying List.foldl
19:59 lewis1711: but hmm
19:59 lewis1711: let me try this:)
20:00 bremner: jonrafkind: feel free to patch configure upstream ;)
20:00 _p4bl0: so `List.fold_left (fun x y -> x + y) 1 [2; 3; 4]` is 10 (i didn't check)
20:00 _p4bl0: yep that's it
20:00 jonrafkind: bremner, ok you think its a good change in general?
20:01 lewis1711: :: (foldl ('a (('a 'b 'a) 'a 'b list))))
20:01 jonrafkind: datadir == libdir unless its explicitly changed?
20:01 lewis1711: i suppose one could just use -> as a procedure
20:02 lewis1711: on a completely unrelated note, any vim racket users out there? I am just using scheme syntax highlighting for racket and it's a bit buggy, can't find anything on the vim wiki with racket plugins
20:03 _p4bl0: lewis1711: you aren't consistent, it would be :: (foldl ('a (('a ('b 'a)) 'a 'b list)))
20:04 _p4bl0: lewis1711: and there's still might be a problem with 'b list, because it's separated by a space like 'a 'b so parsing might not be conveinient
20:04 lewis1711: humm
20:04 jonrafkind: you dont need all the quotes there..
20:04 jonrafkind: thats just a convention in ocaml
20:04 lewis1711: how does TR do it?
20:05 _p4bl0: lewis1711: but I see your point
20:05 _p4bl0: lewis1711: dunno
20:05 lewis1711: (-> (-> a b a) a b_list a)
20:06 lewis1711: though that somewhat defeats the purpose of an arrow :D
20:08 lewis1711 doesn't even know the foldl syntax of racket, looks it up
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20:10 erkangur: hey
20:10 erkangur: folks , here is a newbie question
20:10 erkangur: ((λ x (λ f (f x)) 4) sqrt)
20:10 erkangur: i am expecting 2 as result from this
20:11 erkangur: because ((λ f (f 4)) sqrt) then (sqrt 4)
20:11 _p4bl0: erkangur: it's ((λ x (λ f (f x)) sqrt) 4) that you want
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20:12 erkangur: _p4bl0, but hmm..
20:12 _p4bl0: erkangur: check your parens
20:13 erkangur: ahaa that must produce 2 right? (((λ x (λ f (f x))) 4) sqrt)
20:13 (quit) parcs: Remote host closed the connection
20:14 _p4bl0: erkangur: in fact I think you want that ((λ x (λ f (f x))) 4) sqrt)
20:14 _p4bl0: yup
20:14 (join) parcs
20:14 erkangur: _p4bl0, thanks buddy
20:14 _p4bl0: screen messes up with my copy pasting so i had to correct and didn't see your posting
20:14 _p4bl0: erkangur: you're welcome!
20:17 _p4bl0: erkangur: oh
20:18 _p4bl0: erkangur: and also you should put parens around x and f just after lambdas, if you don't they will be list
20:21 erkangur: _p4bl0, aha yes now it works ! (:
20:21 erkangur: i am 2nd year compsci student and i was watching 3rd year lessons now ,, so my knowledge is a bit untidy (:
20:23 _p4bl0: erkangur: fourth year for me (in france) :-)
20:25 erkangur: _p4bl0, i am in turkey,, i'm getting used to functional programming and loved it so much
20:25 erkangur: first year we were studying how to design programs
20:25 erkangur: but it doesn't show the whole magic, i think (:
20:26 _p4bl0: erkangur: lucky you. In france introductory languages are caml, Pascal C or Java almost everywhere I've heard of
20:27 lewis1711: _p4bl0: no love for Ocaml? :O
20:28 erkangur: _p4bl0, let me tell you something interesting,, my university is the only university which has comp.sci department
20:28 erkangur: others are all comp.eng
20:28 lewis1711: (at my uni it's C# and Java:/ don't have much against them, but very poor environments for learning computer science IMO)
20:29 bremner: _p4bl0: caml is not so bad?
20:29 erkangur: not much university teaching compsci in turkey
20:30 lewis1711: I really like ocaml. mind you I have just started FP recently, with scheme and ocaml
20:33 _p4bl0: No i don't really appreciate OCaml (which is harder in france than anywhere else). Inconsistent standard lib, bad REPL, write-only syntax...
20:33 _p4bl0: I do not hate it thought
20:36 _p4bl0: and I think that a part of my not-liking-it is just by contrariness, since it's developed mainly at INRIA in france by people who thinks that typing is the only problem comp sci have
20:36 _p4bl0: the "well typed programs do not go wrong" spirit
20:36 bremner: _p4bl0: you should try Haskell. It will make you appreciate the relaxed attitude of OCaml ;)
20:37 _p4bl0: bremner: I've already been told that
20:37 lewis1711: _p4bl0: grass is always greener on the other side I guess. I imagine they're eager to shove ocaml down your throats.
20:37 lewis1711: though R was invented in my country, and I quite liked it
20:38 lewis1711: you find ocaml hard to read though? if you look at r5rs the formal grammars read a lot like ML..
20:38 _p4bl0: lewis1711: of course, I know a lot of prof that really think OCaml is tomorrow's language. I think it's funny :-p
20:38 _p4bl0: lewis1711: maybe the write-only part was a bit "trolly"
20:38 lewis1711: :D
20:38 _p4bl0: lewis1711: I must admit I'm a big troll
20:39 lewis1711: is it considered ones patriotic duty to program in Ocaml, in France?
20:39 jonrafkind: ocaml has the worst error messages of all time. ok the end.
20:39 lewis1711: jonrafkind: D beats it
20:39 jonrafkind: ok maybe thats true, i havent used D
20:39 lewis1711: ocamls aren't that bad. poor english, but clear enough
20:39 lewis1711: once you get used to it
20:39 jonrafkind: im talking about the syntax errors
20:39 jonrafkind: not the type ones
20:40 jonrafkind: the type errors are actually quite reasonable
20:40 _p4bl0: lewis1711: nope I don't think it goes this far (patriotic duty) ;-)
20:41 _p4bl0: erkangur: oh I didnt see your message. Only one compsi dept? Who cares if it is good ;-)
20:42 _p4bl0: jonrafkind: the problem is that french comp sci researcher and prof speak a worst english than OCaml :-p
20:43 erkangur: _p4bl0, there is a huge misunderstanding between the terms comp.eng and comp.sci here.
20:44 _p4bl0: erkangur: in france both are called "informatique", so does MS Office usage for instance
20:44 erkangur: _p4bl0, :D
20:44 _p4bl0: erkangur: just imagine: "I'm studiying comp sci" "oh great my Word has a strange problem"...
20:45 erkangur: _p4bl0, possible answer: "it is windows, of course it has!"
20:45 erkangur: :D
20:45 _p4bl0: mine is more like "Word? That stuff with a lot of buttons and an annoying fancy clip that doesn't even have a monospace font by default? Dunno how to use it."
20:45 lewis1711: ^_^
20:46 lewis1711: I am taking up comp sci in the coming semester, in addition to my maths major... unfortunately a software engineering course is required:(
20:48 _p4bl0: lewis1711: only one software engineering course is not bad. I even think it's good. There's too many pure comp sci students/prof/researcher who can't write two lines of code.
20:48 lewis1711: ha
20:49 _p4bl0: lewis1711: even my school have an engineering course (and it's the most theoretically oriented place in the world I think) ^_^
20:49 lewis1711: I guess one won't kill me
20:49 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
20:49 erkangur: lewis1711, (:
20:49 lewis1711: I am very much looking forward to computer architecture though. have been meaning to get my hands dirty with assembler
20:50 lewis1711: maybe after that, when I program in C I will be amazed at how sophisticated it is
20:51 _p4bl0: lewis1711: and we also have this, the first year (a course where we have to design a logic gate language, then an interpreter/compiler for it, then a processor and its assembly language using our logic gates languages, then implement it and run it, all of that to run a watch... :-p)
20:52 _p4bl0: and there's the compiler course. Everything else is math for comp sci
20:52 erkangur: _p4bl0,  first year?
20:52 _p4bl0: (sometimes it hurts :-p)
20:52 _p4bl0: erkangur: first year in this school is 3rd uni year ;-)
20:53 _p4bl0: lewis1711: the reasons I love C for are a subset of the ones for scheme: it's a tiny language, simple and powerful.
20:53 _p4bl0: lewis1711: buy the K&R book, it's small, quickly read and very (very) good
20:53 lewis1711: I only ever write C when I am writing stuff that uses a C library
20:54 lewis1711: (am making a C library for my racket project)
20:54 lewis1711: i have read some of K&R
20:54 lewis1711: I am not very good at learning from books though. I have to code and ask annoying questions on IRC:P
20:54 _p4bl0: :-)
20:59 _p4bl0: lewis1711: I didn't learned C from K&R, but I enjoy reading a page or two at random from time to time. It's so well written :-)
21:00 lewis1711: it is, but I don't like the way they name variables
21:00 lewis1711: ptr and so
21:00 _p4bl0: lewis1711: agreed
21:02 _p4bl0: lewis1711: that's another bad point for Ocaml btw (you know the famous "If u cn rd ths, u cn gt a jb in fncnl prg (if thr wr any)", it's soooo true)
21:02 lewis1711: really? ocaml is quite verbose IMO
21:02 lewis1711: fold_left, string_of_int
21:03 _p4bl0: lewis1711: sadly this doesnt apply to most people using it
21:03 lewis1711: ha
21:04 lewis1711: there are no jobs in financial programming? damn, here I am taking maths and compsci
21:04 _p4bl0: lewis1711: haha
21:06 lewis1711: ohh...
21:06 _p4bl0: lewis1711: ?
21:06 lewis1711: _p4bl0: I read fncnl as "financial" :D
21:06 _p4bl0: lewis1711: ah! for real?
21:06 _p4bl0: I thought it was a pun :-D
21:06 lewis1711: so i guess I can't get an FP job, but financial programming might still work
21:06 lewis1711: *phew*
21:07 _p4bl0: aargh! It's 3am and I still have to make this beamer for tomorrow
21:16 _p4bl0: it's going to be dirty... ^^
21:33 lewis1711: man i am confused about modules. so i don't need a #lang directive if i have a module declared like (module foo racket) ?
21:34 _p4bl0: lewis1711: you're right
21:35 lewis1711: humm
21:35 lewis1711: ok
21:35 lewis1711: also, I am guessing drracket is not the safest environment for running FFI's?
21:35 lewis1711: "SIGSEGV MAPERR si_code 1 fault on addr 0x1"
21:36 _p4bl0: lewis1711: dunno about that, never done FFI in racket and never used DrRacket
21:36 _p4bl0: (Emacs <3)
21:36 bremner: _p4bl0: are you using geiser?
21:37 _p4bl0: bremner: not since a long time but yes
21:37 _p4bl0: bremner: geiser rocks
21:38 lewis1711: humm, is there some database of racket errors?
21:39 (quit) carleastlund: Quit: Leaving.
21:43 _p4bl0: lewis1711: sorry, don't know about that
21:44 lewis1711: haha _p4bl0 you sound exactly like an NPC in games when you ask them about a topic they're not programmed about :D
21:44 lewis1711: anyway brb
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21:46 _p4bl0: lewis1711: does not compute. what do you mean?
21:46 lewis1711: you know, like in computer RPG games
21:46 lewis1711: you ask an NPC about topic "blah blah blah", and it gives a generic message
21:46 lewis1711: if it doesn't know anything:D
21:48 _p4bl0: lewis1711: yea I understood :-D, my "does not compute" was a pun (an attempt to sound even more like one)
21:48 lewis1711: lol
21:48 lewis1711: my bad
21:49 lewis1711: _p4bl0: are there lots of ocaml jobs in france? maybe i should try and pick up french... I can get an EU passport so maybe an idea ^_^
21:49 _p4bl0: lewis1711: there aren't any ocaml jobs anywhere :-D
21:49 lewis1711: hahaha, aww
21:51 _p4bl0: lewis1711: (job as a programmer) I currently know 3 company that uses it: Jane Street (us), MLstate (fr) and a new start-up that I don't even know the name of (fr also)
21:51 lewis1711: that's more than scheme though
21:51 lewis1711 ducks
21:53 _p4bl0: :-D
21:59 _p4bl0: http://www.runorg.com/ <-- this is the startup
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22:01 lewis1711: I wonder if F# will get any traction
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