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00:25 em: Lajla: yes that's me
00:25 Lajla: em, 'that's I'*
00:25 Lajla: I would expect someone from the last bastion of the civilization at that side of the atlantic to use the nominative complement appropriately.
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00:30 sikilpaake: Lajla: there we go
00:31 Lajla: sikilpaake, we go what?
00:31 sikilpaake: Lajla: nevermind
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08:19 carleastlund: What's the appropriate way of combining multiple Scribble forms?  It's not just "begin", I presume, because in expression position that would just throw one away.
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08:26 eli: samth_away: ping
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10:09 Demosthenes: so, any other snooze users here? i'm trying to figure out how I can run SQL commands against the backend reusing the same DB connection snooze already has open
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10:26 Samy: Hi, how i can  get a Cross product of 2 lists ?
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10:48 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * fc39113 (1 files in 1 dirs): same: made the board taller and made the boards a little bit more likely to have more connected things initially - http://bit.ly/ikdXyO
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11:04 Samy: Hi, how i can  get a Cross product of 2 lists ?
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11:17 offby1: rudybot: (for*/fold ([result '()]) ([a '(1 2 3)] [b '(10 20 30)]) (cons (list a b) result))
11:17 rudybot: *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready
11:17 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: ((3 30) (3 20) (3 10) (2 30) (2 20) (2 10) (1 30) (1 20) (1 10))
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13:11 jonrafkind: some good news: I got a little farther in building a ppa for ubuntu. a little more futzing is required, though
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14:30 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 997a2be (1 files in 1 dirs): change copy-from to return this. ... - http://bit.ly/ib5Ae3
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14:33 bremner: nice commit message ;)
14:33 bremner: does Robby know he is on TV?
14:36 jonrafkind: bremner, whats racket-arch.mk supposed to contain?
14:36 samth: bremner, where is robby on tv?
14:36 jonrafkind: :p
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14:36 bremner: oh, just a small joke. I meant on IRC display
14:36 samth: i think robby is avoiding irc
14:36 bremner: sensible. great time waster.
14:37 bremner: IRC, I mean
14:37 bremner: jonrafkind: racket-arch.mk is created in debian/rules
14:37 bremner: one sec, I can give a better answer
14:37 jonrafkind: uh ok, i mean the first thing debian/rules does is include debian/racket-arch.mk
14:37 jonrafkind: so it was throwing an error
14:38 jonrafkind: i just commented that out
14:38 MK_FG: Hi. It's probably a stupid question, but why do plain-install requires empty DESTDIR?
14:39 bremner: mine says RACKET_ARCH := "x86_64-linux"
14:39 MK_FG: I'm just trying to build/install it from a user, then transfer that too /, but this check kinda prevents me from doing that
14:40 jonrafkind: bremner, your debian/rules file hard codes that?
14:40 bremner: nah. It does something (too) clever.
14:40 jonrafkind: what did you mean when you said "mine sayd RACKET_ARCH ..."
14:40 jonrafkind: your what says
14:40 bremner: racket-arch.mk
14:41 jonrafkind: ok
14:41 bremner: so, it gets built by a rule farther down; that shouldn't create an error with Gnu Make.
14:41 jonrafkind: so i dont understand this build system, how can it include the .mk file before it get smade
14:42 jonrafkind: well actually it just throws a warning
14:42 bremner: and builds it then?
14:42 jonrafkind: right now im testing with include racket-arch.mk commented out
14:42 jonrafkind: but i can uncmoment and retest (it takes forever to build though)
14:42 bremner: look for a rule starting debian/racket-arch.mk:
14:43 jonrafkind: yea i see that
14:43 bremner: jonrafkind: parallel building collects helps big time if you have some cores
14:43 jonrafkind: im running it in a vm with 1 core at the moment
14:43 jonrafkind: i have access to some dual core machines, though. maybe i should try that
14:44 bremner: jonrafkind: afaik, this is more or less standard practice for gnu make, often used for e.g. dependency files generated by gcc
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14:44 bremner: although the ordering is a bit non-intuitive, I agree.
14:45 jonrafkind: the only real error I got from this whole system was the source/format had 3.0 (quilt) which wanted a file like orig.tar.gz, but i am building from the git checkout so I changed it to 1.0
14:45 bremner: the .orig.tar.gz is a function of native versus non-native packages, not 1.0 versus 3.0
14:46 jonrafkind: uh well.. does 3.0 force non-native then?
14:47 bremner: no, I don't think so. Maybe it complains more?
14:47 bremner: ah, wait. 3.0 (quilt) forces non-native.
14:47 jonrafkind: that was the only thing i had to change it get it to keep going
14:48 bremner: jonrafkind: if you look at the branch "snapshots", it is setup to build straight from the master branch
14:48 bremner: if that is what you want...
14:49 bremner: I had the impression the latest released version was what was wanted.
14:49 jonrafkind: the ppa is named 'racket nightly'
14:50 bremner: ok, then maybe there is less work to use the snapshots branch, I'm not sure. Depends how far you got.
14:51 jonrafkind: basically I just did 'debuild -S; pbuilder build racket.dsc' and now its building that
14:51 bremner: don't you need to fiddle with changelog to get a different version every night?
14:52 jonrafkind: yea..
14:52 jonrafkind: is there a way around that?
14:52 jonrafkind: thats a really annoying behavior of ppa's
14:53 bremner: what, updating the version?
14:53 jonrafkind: yea
14:54 jonrafkind: at least having to update the changelog, updating the package name should be enough
14:54 bremner: the version is contained in the package name in debian.
14:54 bremner: s/is/is not/
14:54 bremner: small difference ;)
14:55 bremner: afaik, the changelog needs to be updated. But I have zero experience with automatically generating packages.
14:56 jonrafkind: well thats trivial really, echo 'updated blah' > changelog; cat old-changelog >> changelog
14:57 bremner: There is also the script dch, but yeah, as long as you get the format right, it doesn't matter how you generate it.
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14:59 PLT_Notify: racket: master Kevin Tew * 264e7f2 (2 files in 1 dirs): Use worker-count for doc build
14:59 PLT_Notify: racket: master Kevin Tew * e3d7ffb (2 files in 1 dirs): convert parallel-build to classes
14:59 PLT_Notify: racket: master Kevin Tew * e7a24a6 (4 files in 2 dirs): Parallel Locking
14:59 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 1b0fdfd...e7a24a6 - http://bit.ly/hqWmUC
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15:04 giantsteps: I have a noob programmer question pertaining to "How to Design Programs", is it okay to just fire away or is this not the appropriate place?
15:06 samth: giantsteps, sure, this is fine
15:08 giantsteps: Okay, thanks. I'm 25 and looking to start a career in programming. I've gone through about half of HTDP (doing every exercise). I'm wondering if it would be best to finish, or if it would be more pragmatic to look into other things now that I grasp the basics.
15:09 samth: giantsteps, i recommend a few things:
15:09 samth: 1. get at least through VI in HTDP
15:09 giantsteps: Okay
15:10 samth: 2. look at the draft of the second edition of HtDP: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/
15:11 giantsteps: Oh, wow. I had no idea they were making this.
15:12 samth: 3. then take a look at http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html followed by http://docs.racket-lang.org/more/index.html
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15:12 giantsteps: Okay, I've browsed through those a little. Should I do the web programming one too?
15:14 giantsteps: So I should continue with racket before looking into another language, like C?
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15:15 samth: giantsteps, you'll be well-prepared to start doing things in racket after htdp
15:15 samth: there are lots of places to go after introductory material, but it really depends on what you want to do
15:16 giantsteps: I really love working with racket and going through the book, I just want to make sure I'm not prolonging the time it will take me to find an internship/junior level gig.
15:16 samth: it really depends what sort you're looking for
15:17 samth: if someone is looking for java or ruby or python or C experience, then the only way to get that is to work in that language
15:17 giantsteps: I guess I'm not sure what sort of things are actually available to me.
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15:18 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 5013234 (1 files in 1 dirs): fix try-color so that it returns void (instead of returning what copy-from returns) - http://bit.ly/fKNwfs
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15:20 giantsteps: Well, maybe what I want to know is: If I work through all this HTDP/racket stuff and then need to learn another language to get hired, will I be better off overall than just finding a job and learning the language I need for it? My intuition says yes, but I figure it would be worth getting more informed opinions.
15:20 samth: giantsteps, here in this channel, we believe that the answer is very much yes
15:21 samth: right now, i'm teaching a class where we're introducing OO principles using a language built on Racket
15:21 giantsteps: I'm patient. I'm not trying to rush through things. I just want to make sure I'm not bubbling myself.
15:21 giantsteps: Okay
15:22 bremner: so are students (using PLAI) better off with HtDP or HTDP2e?
15:22 samth: bremner, htdp2e is very much not yet done
15:23 bremner: ok. so there is a reason it isn't linked from racket-lang.org ;)
15:23 samth: but htdp2e incorporates a lot of improvements from the last 10 years of teaching
15:23 giantsteps: So if I came to you asking for a java job (I assume there are next to no Scheme jobs), and showed you the completed exercises to HTDP, you'd be more willing to hire me than if I had Java experience? I apologize if I'm being too repetitive.
15:24 samth: giantsteps, i have no experience with hiring people for java jobs
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15:25 samth: but if you're looking for an internship that would typically be available to a first or second year college student, then htdp should be fine preparation
15:25 samth: if you're looking for a professional job, you would likely need experience writing more substantial software
15:26 bremner: and maybe a college or university degree
15:26 giantsteps: Ahh, okay. That helps a lot.
15:26 giantsteps: Is it still viable to get into the business with a non-CS degree?
15:26 samth: at northeastern (where I am) we teach htdp in the fall semester of freshman year
15:26 samth: giantsteps, certainly
15:27 samth: but you need more than just an intro course worth of preparation
15:27 giantsteps: That's what I assumed.
15:28 giantsteps: So after HTDP and the links you gave me, should I focus mainly on finding an internship?
15:28 giantsteps: Or should I move on to another book?
15:28 giantsteps: ...or do a project?
15:29 giantsteps: Btw, I've talked to other people about this, but none of them were familiar with scheme or HTDP. I guess that's why I'm here.
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15:44 giantsteps: Well, I need to go. Thank you so much for all your help. I really appreciate it.
15:44 (part) giantsteps: "ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"
15:47 MK_FG: Is it normal behavior for racket process on linux to get about 650 SIGSEGV's on a simple "hello world" script?
15:49 MK_FG: racket seem to handle them internally w/o breaking, but it's just looks a bit weird
15:49 MK_FG: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/319077/
15:54 MK_FG: Can someone try "echo | strace racket 2>&1 | grep -c SEGV" and tell me the number it gives, please?
15:58 bremner: 896
15:58 MK_FG: bremner, Thanks
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16:24 jonrafkind: bremner, so snapshots is merged with upstream once a day or something?
16:24 jonrafkind: the last merge was 4 days ago
16:25 jonrafkind: i mean should I try to use your debian package or just fork it and keep it in racket somewhere?
16:25 bremner: jonrafkind: it's a manual thing.
16:26 bremner: jonrafkind: I didn't think about doing nightly builds before now. I could probably do something like that, but probably not this week.
16:27 jonrafkind: ok so do you want to do that? if we gave you access to our launchpad page maybe you could create the ppa's ?
16:27 jonrafkind: i mean I could do it too if it just consists of git pull, then run some script
16:29 bremner: how big an audience is there for nightly builds of racket?
16:32 bremner: we are talking about the intersection of people who should be using pre-release racket and those who can't build it :)
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16:36 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 6d48ea1 (1 files in 1 dirs): win32: use wglGetProcAddress for sgl when direct lookup fails
16:36 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits f64b520...6d48ea1 - http://bit.ly/eoSFSV
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16:37 jonrafkind: well ok, but its a small step from nightly builds to release builds
16:37 jonrafkind: should i just make a release ppa then?
16:38 bremner: that seems like a question for the racket team.
16:38 jonrafkind: i mean should I make it or should you
16:38 jonrafkind: there is no question whether it should be done at all
16:39 bremner: ah, ok. I'm not planning on supporting Ubuntu packages directly. so, I guess you should.
16:39 jonrafkind: ok
16:40 bremner: ideally, once the debian freeze is over, racket will propagate from Debian unstable to Ubuntu naturally.
16:40 bremner: but this might be a month or more from now :(
16:40 jonrafkind: a month? i thought debian freezes were measured in years or something
16:40 bremner: yeah, well. it didn't just start.
16:41 jonrafkind: well anyway its good for the future, since minor revisions of racket can be distributed quicker than what debian propagates
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16:43 bremner: I hope debian unstable will track racket releases (3 month ones) fairly well in the future, but I admit the track record is pretty dismal.
16:43 bremner: one thing that changed is I am now using racket to teach, so I can justify more effort.
16:44 jonrafkind: ah interesting
16:44 bremner: but, we are still stuck right now, and people reasonably enough want racket rather than the old plt-scheme packages.
16:45 jonrafkind: so racket 5.x still isn't in ubuntu, right?
16:45 bremner: correct
16:45 jonrafkind: also 5.1 will be a big change, not sure if you aware of that
16:46 bremner: I heard inklings. Big from 5.0.2, or from 5.0.99.x?
16:46 jonrafkind: i think 5.0.2
16:47 jonrafkind: 5.0.99 is like an rc of 5.1
16:47 bremner: ah ok. right. As a user it doesn't seem so radically different.
16:47 jonrafkind: right, and it might not be a huge packaging change, but basically racket doesn't depend on x11 anymore (directly)
16:47 jonrafkind: instead if uses cairo and some other packages
16:48 bremner: The packaging changes are pretty minimal.
16:48 jonrafkind: ok
16:48 bremner: so far.
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17:38 samth: MK_FG, racket uses SEGV internally in the memory manager
17:38 samth: so that's totally normal
17:39 MK_FG: I see, just a bit unexpected for someone from C world, where it's usually fatal ;)
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18:33 PLT_Notify: racket: master Carl Eastlund * 8d36436 (0 files in 0 dirs): Starting to move macros for documenting Planet packages out of unstable. ...
18:33 PLT_Notify: racket: master Carl Eastlund * debad06 (6 files in 3 dirs): Moved most of the planet-related bindings from unstable/scribble and ...
18:33 PLT_Notify: racket: master Carl Eastlund * 557fd0f (0 files in 0 dirs): Moved this-package-version-symbol from unstable/planet to planet/version. ...
18:33 PLT_Notify: racket: master Carl Eastlund * 803ac4a (0 files in 0 dirs): Added a sample package to test Planet scribblings.  No automated tests yet. ...
18:33 PLT_Notify: racket: master Carl Eastlund * 8439686 (1 files in 1 dirs): Updated Planet documentation to include the new modules and their exports. ...
18:33 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 2e05c11...8439686 - http://bit.ly/gkogZl
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19:16 jonrafkind: eli, ping
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19:27 jonrafkind: bremner, I get an error about 'cannot make /nonexistant' with pbuilder when trying to make 5.0.2
19:30 bremner: jonrafkind: it should be safe to comment out setting HOME; I suspect this is a bug in racket
19:31 jonrafkind: ahh
19:31 jonrafkind: well maybe i should just set it to /tmp for now?
19:31 bremner: some naughty collect is trying to create something in user homedir
19:31 jonrafkind: i guess racket wants to write to it
19:31 jonrafkind: actually 3 collects :p
19:32 jonrafkind: was grepping the whole racket tree for 'nonexistant' but it was in debian the whole time!
19:32 bremner: sorry
19:32 jonrafkind: also what does gitpkg do?
19:33 bremner: makes source packages from fit
19:33 bremner: git
19:34 jonrafkind: so if I use gitpkg to make foo-1.0.tar.gz then I can run 'debuild -S' from the foo/ directory?
19:34 bremner: gitpkg makes .dsc; pbuilder eats those
19:35 jonrafkind: do you give gitpkg a git:// path or a filesystem path with a .git directory in it?>
19:37 bremner: a branch. did you see README.source?
19:37 jonrafkind: oh right
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20:01 bremner: jonrafkind: I think the naughty collects in question are not part of the 5.0.2 tarball?
20:03 jonrafkind: oh that might be true
20:03 jonrafkind: i built from git
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20:53 bremner: ,bots
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22:16 PLT_Notify: racket: master Asumu Takikawa * 60d0e5b (1 files in 1 dirs): Add a layer of export redirection in mred/mred.rkt. ... - http://bit.ly/dHXrEK
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