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09:50 Tasser: Strings are immutable, right?
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09:59 samth: Tasser, strings in racket are mutable, see `string-set!'
09:59 samth: rudybot, doc string-set!
09:59 rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
09:59 rudybot: samth: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/strings.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._string-set!))
10:00 (quit) rien_: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
10:02 Tasser: samth, symbols are immutable, right.
10:06 bremner: rudybot: update your URL's!
10:06 rudybot: bremner: The atomic rename trick breaks hard links because, at the end, you have a new file with the same name as the old file, not an update of the old file.
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10:08 samth: Tasser, yes
10:10 Lajla: Aren't there mutable and immutable strins
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10:10 samth: Lajla, yes
10:11 Lajla: rudybot: (string-set! "immutable" 0 #\a)
10:11 rudybot: Lajla: your sandbox is ready
10:11 rudybot: Lajla: error: string-set!: expects type <mutable string> as 1st argument, given: "immutable"; other arguments were: 0 #\a
10:11 samth: rudybot eval (immutable? "foo")
10:11 samth: rudybot:  (immutable? "foo")
10:11 rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
10:11 rudybot: samth: ; Value: #t
10:11 samth: rudybot:  (immutable? (string #\f #\o #\o))
10:11 rudybot: samth: ; Value: #f
10:11 Lajla: rudybot: (mutable? (make-string 4 #\x))
10:11 rudybot: Lajla: error: reference to undefined identifier: mutable?
10:11 Lajla: Oh well
10:12 Lajla: rudybot (define (mutable-string? x) (and (string? x) (not (mutable? x))))
10:12 Lajla: rudybot: (define (mutable-string? x) (and (string? x) (not (mutable? x))))
10:12 rudybot: Lajla: Done.
10:12 Lajla: Ehhr
10:12 Lajla: rudybot: (define (mutable-string? x) (and (string? x) (not (immutable? x))))
10:12 rudybot: Lajla: Done.
10:13 Lajla: rudybot: (mutable-string? (string #\r #\a #\c #\k #\e #\t))
10:13 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #t
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10:40 Lajla: rudybot: (mutable-string? (list->string (string->list "string")))
10:40 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #t
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12:23 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * be1046b (1 files in 1 dirs): fix GC log printout
12:23 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * e64c99f (1 files in 1 dirs): typo ...
12:23 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * f1e13a7 (6 files in 5 dirs): modial dialog don't disable mouse motion, enter, and leave events ...
12:23 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits d2cb96b...f1e13a7 - http://bit.ly/gqY212
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12:23 em: bremner, eli, would it be possible to make a racket PPA for Ubuntu?
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12:25 bremner: em: did you see my reply before?
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12:50 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 2553553 (2 files in 2 dirs): improved same game ... - http://bit.ly/g7QEhD
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12:51 jonrafkind: who put PLT_Notify in here?
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13:19 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * f86fbad (1 files in 1 dirs): fix stupid stuff, plus make purple a little more different than brown - http://bit.ly/ej6fuU
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13:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master Stephen Bloch * 57dfc31 (1 files in 1 dirs): Two test files for picturing-programs had been disabled; they're re-enabled now. - http://bit.ly/eSZkFP
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14:04 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 160d9d9 (1 files in 1 dirs): removed unused bound id
14:04 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 9698d03 (1 files in 1 dirs): adjust check syntax so that it uses a copy of the definitions text as the source of the program ...
14:04 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 57dfc31...9698d03 - http://bit.ly/eftnhG
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14:15 samth: jonrafkind, me
14:15 jonrafkind: ok
14:15 eli: em: It might be possible, jonrafkind volunteered to try it.
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14:16 jonrafkind: what is it
14:16 samth: jonrafkind, a PPA for racket
14:16 eli: (which I assumed is the ubuntu thing that you were talking about.)
14:16 jonrafkind: the build system that I borrowed from debian (was it bremner's?) didn't work so well
14:16 (quit) Quetzalcoatl_: Quit: Page closed
14:17 bremner: can haz bug reports?
14:17 jonrafkind: yea well id have to investigate again
14:17 jonrafkind: also just setting up the build system was a huge pain
14:17 jonrafkind: i mean i had to create a new ubuntu vm and populate it with all the stuff that launchpad uses to build
14:21 bremner: oh that. that's not my fault
14:22 bremner: but it is one reason I'm not doing it
14:27 bremner: newer ubuntu packages on racket-Lang.org might be easier?
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14:27 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 4c05bb4 (1 files in 1 dirs): win32: mouse-leave events when mouse leaves the frame
14:27 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * a28ead9 (1 files in 1 dirs): fix some switchable-button tooltip problems
14:27 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 9698d03...a28ead9 - http://bit.ly/gHwSb1
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16:13 clklein: Is it intentional that the 2htdp/image functions don't raise an error if you supply non-sense colors like "blueqlkjflasdf"?
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17:15 carleastlund: clklein, What do you mean?  I painted my living room blueqlkjflasdf.
17:19 jonrafkind: i just rebuilt drracket and now 'check syntax' is gone
17:20 jonrafkind: actually all the usual buttons are gone
17:20 jonrafkind: all i have is 'run' and 'stop'
17:20 jonrafkind: maybe i have to do my usual 'find . -name collects | xargs rm -rf'
17:21 jonrafkind: i wish rebuilding the collects tree would find old collects and rebuild them for me..
17:22 carleastlund: Do you mean "-name compiled"?
17:22 jonrafkind: yea
17:22 carleastlund: And, I don't have that problem in general... how are you building DrRacket that old stuff isn't getting rebuilt?
17:22 jonrafkind: cd src/b; make && make install
17:23 jonrafkind: it doesnt happen all the time, but im not sure what causes old zo files to hang around
17:25 carleastlund: I have occasionally had that issue; I'm never sure if it's a bug, or that I skipped some part of the build process.  I believe "make && make install" is not guaranteed to always work -- sometimes you need to re-run configure, or clear out your build directory and/or old .zos.  I just do a clean build when I have to.
17:25 jonrafkind: yea, but you should only have to rerun configure if the C engine stuff changed
17:26 jonrafkind: usually im aware of commits enough to know when that happens
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17:43 Demosthenes: so how "late" can i require additional libraries? for example, i'm using snooze and was hoping to use a command line parameter to decide whether to load the sqlite3 or postgres modules...
17:44 jonrafkind: (dynamic-require ...)
17:47 Demosthenes: hrm, close! ;]
17:47 Demosthenes: i broke my provide statement
17:48 jonrafkind: ok after a full rebuild check syntax is still missing
17:48 jonrafkind: where did it go
17:49 jonrafkind: somehow no tools got loaded
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18:14 stamourv: Demosthenes: sounds like units may be what you want
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18:17 jonrafkind: raco setup is hanging when it builds my planet packages
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18:38 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * b823b94 (2 files in 2 dirs): change drracket to print the start & end compiling messages when in PLTDRCM=trace mode
18:38 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 666c559 (1 files in 1 dirs): adjusted how paren matching inside {} works for better tabbing in scribble mode
18:38 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * de8ba4b (2 files in 2 dirs): improved the way scoring works for same
18:38 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits a28ead9...de8ba4b - http://bit.ly/fRrM54
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18:45 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * b287733 (2 files in 2 dirs): support ".svg" in `scribble/base' `image' for HTML output
18:45 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 6afffb3 (10 files in 8 dirs): add `svg-dc%'
18:45 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * a9bedcc (1 files in 1 dirs): change Scribble HTML to use `object' tag for SVG
18:45 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 68e60df (1 files in 1 dirs): fix docs for `image-element'
18:45 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits de8ba4b...68e60df - http://bit.ly/hfXLfb
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19:04 samth: eli, ping!
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19:17 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * afdfafa (1 files in 1 dirs): win32: let default handlers see WM_MOUSELEAVE ... - http://bit.ly/f6XSuB
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19:21 eli: samth: ?
19:22 samth: eli, installing our plt file on a windows machine produced very strange behavior
19:22 eli: Yes?
19:22 samth: in particular, after unzipping, it gave an error saying that it couldn't set up `scribblings/main' because it was the same name as another collection to be set up, `2htdp'
19:22 samth: david, on a different machine, got the same error, but with `combinator-parser' instead of `2htdp'
19:23 samth: also, on the lab machines in CCIS, hitting F1 produces a useless page in IE
19:23 eli: Hold on with the IE thing.
19:23 eli: Did you use `--at-plt' when creating the plt file?
19:23 samth: yes
19:24 samth: btw, adding ++setup scribblings/main fixed the problem with setting up the docs on my linux machine
19:24 eli: And `--replace'?
19:24 samth: yes
19:24 eli: (Yeah, I figured it would.)
19:24 samth: raco pack -v ++setup class0 ++setup scribblings/main --at-plt --replace class0.plt class0/
19:25 eli: Did David have a problem with `combinator-parser' when setting up `scribblings/main' too?
19:25 samth: that's the command line
19:25 eli: My command line is a little different.
19:25 samth: he did exactly what I did -- open up drracket 5.0.2, choose install plt file, paste in the url, hit ok
19:26 samth: running 'raco setup' on windows is non-trivial
19:26 eli: But was the problem at the point where it made `scribblings/main'?
19:26 samth: it didn't do any setting up at all
19:26 eli: In your case too?
19:27 samth: right
19:28 eli: So why did you say: couldn't set up `scribblings/main' because it was the same name as another collection to be set up, `2htdp'
19:28 samth: that was the error message
19:28 eli: OK, so in both cases that was the error message (with the second one being a different random collection), and in both it happened before any setting up was done?
19:28 samth: yes
19:29 eli: If so, then it sounds like some problem with setup again.  At least that would be my guess.
19:29 eli: What was the exact text of the error?
19:29 samth: i don't have it, b/c it was in lab, where i no longer am
19:30 eli: Something with "refers to the same directory"?
19:30 samth: yeah
19:30 samth: "given collection path: \"~a\" refers to the same directory as another given collection path, \"~a\""
19:30 samth: that looks right, it's from collects/setup/setup-unit
19:30 eli: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out where that code can mess up.
19:31 eli: Just to be clear, that happens on Windows only, not on linux, right?
19:31 samth: right
19:31 samth: worked on mac too
19:31 eli: Also, did you try it on a plain windows machine?
19:32 eli: (plain = non-dept machine)
19:32 samth: no
19:32 samth: i don't have any of those
19:32 samth: i can try at some point, but not right now
19:34 eli: It would be ideal if it fails on all windows -- if it's in the dept setup only, then things can get very hairy.
19:36 eli: samth: It looks like the problem boils down to that code, which I think I figured out.
19:36 samth: thanks!
19:37 eli: Don't thank me, because I think I know where it comes from but have no fix.
19:37 eli: The test before that error tests three things.
19:37 eli: s/three/two/
19:37 eli: The first is (not (equal? (cadr cc+name+id) (cadr given-cc+name+id)))
19:37 eli: The name is, IIRC, the path to the collection -- so it checks that for different named collections.
19:38 eli: (Since you can name a collection in several ways.)
19:38 eli: So you have two collections that satisfy that.
19:38 eli: The next check is the problem -- it checks that they have the same identity.
19:38 eli: And that identity is something that you get from `file-or-directory-identity'.
19:39 eli: On linux/osx that identity is the inode number.
19:39 eli: On Windows it should be the equivalent thing.
19:39 eli: So it looks like you have two directories with the same idenity.
19:40 samth: which is ridiculous, but i can believe that there's something going wrong
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19:41 eli: samth: Can you access that machine now?
19:42 eli: If so, try this: (map (compose file-or-directory-identity collection-path) '("2htdp" "scribblings/main"))
19:42 samth: i'd have to go back downstairs
19:42 eli: If it returns two identical numbers then there's a Matthew-level problem.
19:42 Tasser: is there a fast way to insert something into the middle of the string? Or simply create a new one out of three pieces
19:42 samth: Tasser, i expect that `string-append' is plenty fast
19:43 eli: samth: It might be something that results from our weird setup.
19:43 Tasser: samth, so substring and string-append
19:43 samth: yeah
19:43 eli: samth: And that goes back to the IE problem -- I don't remember the exact details now, but the bottom line was that IE was hopelessly broken by our setup.
19:43 eli: (our = NEU; not PLT)
19:44 eli: Firefox was a little better, but still suffered from something.
19:44 samth: is there any way to fix this so that F1 works?
19:44 eli: As a kind of a lame stopgap, you'll see that using the help in any way (at least I hope it's in any way) uses docs.racket-lang.org.
19:45 eli: That's a patch that they've been applying on every installed version.
19:45 eli: And IIRC, making it work with any file is hopeless.
19:45 samth: unfortunately, that doesn't help at all
19:45 samth: b/c our plt file is obv. not on docs.racket-lang
19:46 eli: It's related to whatever it is that they're using to distribute applications, and the fact that each application lives in its own world, and the fact that using help invokes a separate process which somehow can't see the same files since they come from a different process.
19:46 eli: Or something like that.
19:47 samth: ok, so i'll yell at them tomorrow
19:47 eli: It's all very weird and hard to deal with, and I got the feeling that given enough energy it might be made to work -- but that's above what they could allocate.
19:47 eli: It's also some problem that the software was supposed to fix about two years ago, and was never done.
19:47 eli: Ah -- softgrid -- that's the name of that thing.
19:48 samth: well, since we have documentation that is (a) important and (b) not on racket-lang maybe we can make them pay attention
19:48 eli: I have to go now, but I'll tell you two quick things.
19:48 eli: First, having a course to be worried over, you might be able to get them to move and finally find some problem to this.
19:49 eli: (That is, it's finally a problem that can't be fixed with that patch.)
19:49 eli: Second, I can tell you where the change is -- the change that makes it use docs.racket-lang.org
19:49 eli looks
19:50 eli: samth: "collects/help/search.rkt"
19:50 eli: There's a comment saying "This is an example of changing this code to use the online manuals."
19:50 eli: And that example is essentially how they patch the distribution.
19:50 samth: ok
19:51 eli: So given that module lookup is spliced at the file level, you could pack that file with your collection -- this way you can have your own url there.
19:51 eli: Then you need some place with all the plt docs and your docs.
19:51 samth: well, i'll take that in to yell at david with
19:51 eli: I know it's a pretty bad hack, but the softgrid thing is nearly impossible to deal with.
19:52 eli: So expect strong resistance.
19:52 samth: i will
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20:08 em: bremner: no im really sorry also i think i was disconnected before your reply.
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20:09 tekcar: Is there a Dr. Racket package for ubuntu lucid?  It has an older version of Dr. Scheme in the repository and the Dr. Racket website seems to only support jaunty
20:09 em: jonrafkind: if you can make a PPA for racket for Ubuntu that would be excellent.
20:09 jonrafkind: ok
20:09 samth: tekcar, the ubuntu package on the website works find on lucid
20:10 em: tekcar: yep that's what im curious about as well.
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20:11 em: I use maverik. I tried compiling from source but I think there is some bug in checkinstall
20:13 jonrafkind: hm i dont recall ever using 'checkinstall'
20:13 jonrafkind: you should just do 'make && make install'
20:13 (quit) tekcar: Quit: Page closed
20:14 em: with checkinstall it should make a .deb that apt can manage. So it's easier to remove etc.
20:14 samth: em, there is 0 chance than any code distributed with the racket source successfully builds a .deb file
20:15 em: i resolved all dependencies and i did ./configure --prefix=/usr/local/racket  --enable-shared
20:15 em: but when I did sudo checkinstall it broke saying that it could not get mkdir to make the directory paths in /usr/local/racket
20:17 samth: em, i don't think you should use checkinstall
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20:38 em: samth_away: i just got it to install with just make install rather than checkinstall but now I dont know how a person can update it and such.
20:42 em: the graphics are not quite right. There is some library I think that racket needs to make it 'look nice' but it doesn't include that as a dependency. does anyone happen to remember the name of that lib?
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20:49 em: I wonder if it could be libgtk2.0-dev
20:52 bremner: em: ok, I just replied before that I don't use Ubuntu, so I'm not the right person to make a PPA.  I also mentioned that if you want to build packages, you could start from the debian source package on http://pivot.cs.unb.ca/debian/pool/main/r/racket/racket_5.0.2-2.dsc
20:52 em: okay thanks
20:53 em: bremner: do you happen to have any guess on the lib that makes drracket look more polished?
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20:54 bremner: em: sorry, I'm pretty ignorant about GUI's.  The version I build looks OK to me, but I might not be a good judge.
20:55 bremner: I could probably paste a picture.
20:59 bremner: http://picpaste.com/drracket-HRmZjnNV.png
21:00 em: bremner: thanks, this is what I see -- http://i.imgur.com/DOiMp.png
21:00 em: you can see there is strange aliasing and those boxes in the lower window.
21:01 bremner: ah, yeah. Looks like a font problem. I think you might be able to choose a font in the preferences menu that looks better.
21:02 em: i think it's a missing lib that i didn't have when i compiled it.
21:02 em: but that doesn't show up in dependencies.
21:02 bremner: freetype would be my guess.
21:03 bremner: well, you can look at the list of dependencies in the package I pointed you at.
21:03 bremner: If you pull up edit -> preferences and look at the font tab, do any of the options look better?
21:12 em: bremner: would the list of dependencies be different than the list of things configure says it needs to compile?
21:13 bremner: configure can be a bit adaptable if something is missing. the list of dependencies is the list that I compile with.
21:17 em: bremner: that's a great insight, i just learned something about compiling from source then.
21:17 em: is there always some list of dependencies some place?
21:17 em: i think it's likely to be libfreetype
21:17 bremner: em: I guess there is a list in the racket documentation. I don't remember where.
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21:21 bremner: hmm. Obviously I am not a true lisp person. I just tried to redefine car as a kind of vehicle.
21:23 (quit) aw_: Quit: Page closed
21:31 Lajla: (cdaddr bremner)
21:31 bremner: I am immutable!
21:32 Lajla: THat doesn't mean I can't access a part of you.
21:32 Lajla: I just can't change it.
21:32 bremner: yeah. more evidence of lack of lisp-fu.
21:32 Lajla: Well, it also doesn't mean that I can't change the accessed part as far as I know.
21:32 Lajla: If an immutable pair's cdr field is a string, I can still use string-set! on that string rait?
21:41 (nick) sethalves -> sethAway
21:47 em: bremner: i think maybe the missing library might be libglu1-messa-dev im recompiling with that installed to see.
21:47 bremner: I'd be a bit suprised if that was the case.
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21:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 0705491 (2 files in 2 dirs): same: spread the bonus out to last 20 cells and don't do the double-color thing - http://bit.ly/gIYuUF
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21:49 em: bremner: really why?
21:49 bremner: that library should have something to do with 3D graphics if I understand correctly.
21:50 em: oh shoot then im not sure yet.
21:51 em: anyhow it wasn't installed on my system at the time i compiled it the first time.
21:51 em: its compiling again right now though so it will be just a bit.
21:57 em: Hm in the README i gather it might be some libs to do with Xft and Cairo
22:06 em: success!
22:06 em: thanks for the heads up
22:09 bremner: yeah, xft and cairo both sound like good bets.
22:10 Lajla: em, are you the new incarnation of Emma?
22:10 Lajla: The New Yorker with a British accent.
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