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05:25 (join) aLeSD
05:25 aLeSD: hi all
05:26 aLeSD: I am a c/c++ programmer and I would like to learn racket because I want to livecode with fluxus ....
05:26 aLeSD: Could u suggest me how to understand the racket language ?
05:28 aLeSD: ehm
05:28 cky: aLeSD: I think you're in the wrong timezone.
05:29 cky: Many people who are here are in North America, where the time varies between 2.30 and 5.30 in the morning.
05:29 aLeSD: I am in the center or the world
05:29 cky: i.e., you may get better responses if you wait a few hours. :-P
05:29 aLeSD: mmm
05:29 cky: Goodness knows I need to be going to sleep already.
05:29 cky: (5.30 am here.)
05:29 aLeSD: so racket people are not freak as c people
05:29 aLeSD: c people don 't sleep
05:30 cky: I guess Racket helps you become more balanced and well-adjusted. :-P
05:33 Lajla: aLeSD, I am here.
05:34 aLeSD: ih ih
05:34 Lajla: aLeSD, ehhh
05:34 aLeSD: cky racket is function oriented language ?
05:34 Lajla: You read SICP or HtdP basically like anyone does.
05:34 Lajla: aLeSD, it's a functional language at heart yeah
05:34 Lajla: But some would say 'It supporst the functional paradigm'
05:34 Lajla: Language also supports imperative programming, but I don't think it's pretty.
05:35 Lajla: You use (set! x y) intead of x = y;
05:36 aLeSD: nobody wants to chat with me
05:36 cky: aLeSD: Lajla is chatting with you.
05:36 cky: Read the last 5 lines.
05:36 cky: :-P
05:36 aLeSD: :
05:38 Lajla: Nobody wants ot chat with lajla. =(
05:38 Lajla: cky, the band/
05:40 cky: Lajla: Nope.
05:40 cky: Lajla: It used to be my initials.
05:40 Lajla: But then you changed your sex and name?
05:40 cky: Hahaha. I changed my last name when I got married.
05:41 Lajla: Such an archaic practice.
05:41 Lajla: I think last names are silly in this modern age where you just keep track of everyone by a number anyway in the government files.
05:42 Lajla: Especially the malechauv idea of taking the last names of husbands and giving kids the last name of the dad.
05:44 cky: I agree.
05:44 cky: That's why my wife and I both use a double-barreled name.
05:49 aLeSD: sorry
05:49 aLeSD: i was in the toilette
05:50 aLeSD: Lajla,  ... c is imperativve ?
05:52 aLeSD: mmm
05:52 aLeSD: helo
05:52 aLeSD: we have comunication problems ... I think
05:54 Lajla: aLeSD, yeah
05:54 Lajla: C is an imperative language.
05:55 Lajla: racket or scheme is more functionally oriented
05:55 aLeSD: what does it mean ?
05:55 aLeSD: like u five
05:55 aLeSD: u eat
05:56 aLeSD: ok
05:56 Lajla: Roughly, i means that in C you tend to change the value of variables.
05:56 Lajla: and in racket you don't.
05:56 aLeSD: maybe it is bettter another questuion
05:56 aLeSD: what will change in my way of thinking from c to scheme ?
05:56 aLeSD: Lajla,  I don't understand
05:56 aLeSD: (define d 5)
05:57 aLeSD: (define d 3)
05:57 Lajla: Yeah but that doesn't cahnge the value of d.
05:57 Lajla: aLeSD, some implementations prohibit that.
05:57 aLeSD: no ?
05:57 Lajla: re-defining.
05:57 Lajla: See define more as const.
05:57 aLeSD: mmmm
05:57 aLeSD: that's mean that everything is a const ?
05:57 aLeSD: ah
05:57 Lajla: aLeSD, you know what {x ; y ; z;} means  right?
05:58 Lajla: sequencg statements
05:58 Lajla: aLeSD, well, yes, basically, you can update.
05:58 aLeSD: of course
05:58 aLeSD: no
05:58 aLeSD: ah
05:58 aLeSD: yes
05:58 Lajla: But generally you won't, and some implementations restrict it heaviliy.
05:58 aLeSD: is a vector
05:58 Lajla: No, that's with ,
05:58 aLeSD: or a pint in 3 dimension geometric
05:58 Lajla: With ; it's a sequencing.
05:58 aLeSD: where ?
05:58 aLeSD: in racket ?
05:59 Lajla: {y = 4; y++; return y;
05:59 Lajla: No, in C.
05:59 Lajla: In racket, that means nothing.
05:59 Lajla: But in racket, you generally don't execute multiple statements in sequence.
05:59 Lajla: You execute only one.
05:59 aLeSD: ah
05:59 aLeSD: ok
05:59 Lajla: Most functions contain only one expression.
05:59 aLeSD: a block
05:59 Lajla: Also, the 'if' in racket is actually more like the ?: operator
05:59 Lajla: it returns a value.
06:00 Lajla: (if foo bar baz) is like foo ? bar : baz
06:00 aLeSD: go more deep
06:00 aLeSD: change my thinkings
06:00 Lajla: aLeSD, well, basically, everything returns a value.
06:00 Lajla: You use the value it returns more than the side effect it causes, as a general rule.
06:01 Lajla: For instance, say you want to write a function that calcualtes the length of a list.
06:01 Lajla: You would use (define (length the-list) (if (null? the-list) 0 (length (cdr the-list))))
06:01 aLeSD: mmm
06:01 aLeSD: everything is a value in computer world
06:01 aLeSD: ok
06:01 Lajla: null? basically outputs true if the list is empty.
06:01 aLeSD: wait
06:01 Lajla: And cdr extracts the tail of the list.
06:02 Lajla: Ehh
06:02 Lajla: (+ 1 (length (cdr the-list))), sorry
06:02 aLeSD: 0  is true ?
06:02 aLeSD: if the list null return 0
06:02 aLeSD: ?
06:03 aLeSD: if ( list ==NULL) return 0 ?
06:03 Lajla: Yeah, the length
06:03 Lajla: But actually more like return if (list == null) 0
06:03 aLeSD: so I return 0
06:03 Lajla: A function returns its last expression
06:03 aLeSD: not true
06:04 Lajla: there is no return statement
06:04 aLeSD: ok
06:04 Lajla: No, like (null? x)
06:04 aLeSD: then the else block
06:04 Lajla: outputs true if x is the empty list
06:04 Lajla: and false otherwise
06:04 aLeSD: cdr remove the last element ?
06:04 Lajla: Well, it's not a block in the list.
06:04 Lajla: aLeSD, no, the first
06:04 Lajla: If you have a list x
06:04 Lajla: (car x) gives you the first element
06:04 Lajla: and (cdr x) gives you a list which contains all elements but the first.
06:05 Lajla: It stands for contents of address part of register, and contents of decrement parts of register.
06:05 Lajla: Old name
06:05 Lajla: That has stuck simply
06:05 aLeSD: ok
06:05 aLeSD: understood
06:06 aLeSD: I had been done with a for cicle in c
06:06 Lajla: Yeah, you don't use those here.
06:06 Lajla: well,t here is a for-each, but it's a -function+
06:06 aLeSD: mmm
06:06 aLeSD: a lot of recursion it it ?
06:06 Lajla: This is also something you will use often in racket, functions where other languages use special syntactic constructs.
06:06 aLeSD: is it
06:07 Lajla: Well, yeah.
06:07 Lajla: Racket has tail call optimization
06:07 aLeSD: do u know fluxus ?
06:07 Lajla: So you can in a lot of cases recurse without overlfowing the stack.
06:07 Lajla: No, what is it?
06:07 aLeSD: ok
06:07 aLeSD: let's try something
06:08 aLeSD: is a racket based language for livecoding graphical stuffs
06:08 aLeSD: it takes input from a player (or line in) and you create worlds
06:09 aLeSD: it is used to create stuffs like secondlife
06:09 aLeSD: however ... my goal is to create geometric stuffs that move with the music
06:09 aLeSD: so
06:10 aLeSD: mmm
06:10 aLeSD: no
06:10 aLeSD: ok
06:10 aLeSD: i am running in the wrong way
06:10 aLeSD: where i could find some exercises to learn racket ?
06:17 Lajla: THe book 'How to design programs'
06:17 Lajla: It's online
06:18 aLeSD: thanks
06:18 aLeSD: no
06:18 aLeSD: i will not read that book
06:19 aLeSD: I need something practical
06:19 aLeSD: something that follow the extreme programming statement
06:20 Lajla: What is extreme programming statement?
06:27 aLeSD: Lajla, it is the base of opensource developing
06:29 aLeSD: Lajla, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Programming
06:29 Lajla: Yeah, I'm reading that now.
06:29 Lajla: And I would first recommend that you learn how racket works.
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06:31 aLeSD: Lajla, I'd like to learn meanwhile I am doing my programs with fluxus
06:31 aLeSD: :)
06:31 aLeSD: but I will follow your advices
06:32 Lajla: I'm not sure what fluxus is.
06:37 aLeSD: I will give you a video
06:37 aLeSD: just a sec
06:38 aLeSD: Lajla, : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTt8r3LhCFM&playnext=1&list=PL383D1FF1E109D7B5&index=23
06:38 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/38or83e
06:38 aLeSD: here u are
06:39 Lajla: That look Scheme-like, yeah
06:41 aLeSD: I have to learn it ... fast
06:42 aLeSD: ok bye
06:42 aLeSD: AND THANKS
06:46 (quit) aLeSD: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
06:47 Lajla: That was kind of weird.
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08:00 Demosthenes: so, it appears that format in racket isn't quite as featureful as in CL, ie: there's no allowing something like this to process a list to CSV (format t "~{~a~^, ~}" list)
08:01 Demosthenes: or did i miss an alternative?
08:07 Lajla: Format is evil.
08:07 Lajla: At least, that is what they told me.
08:09 Demosthenes: thats a slick trick, throwing together a CSV output it one line of code
08:09 Demosthenes: it just runs through the list, it was a mini-language for output. nothing bad there.
08:09 Demosthenes: instead i find myself writing weird loops to do string appends
08:14 amacleod: Demosthenes, could you perhaps make a macro for it?
08:15 Demosthenes: oh there's way around it sure, i was just asking for confirmation that the format mini-language had been neutered.
08:16 amacleod: Ah.. dunno.  You could compare Racket docs and CL docs, right?
08:19 amacleod: Yeah.. looks like Racket's format lacks ~{}
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09:28 kingping: (moOo)
09:29 kingping: How do racketeers curry functions, with function `curry` ?
09:29 kingping: rudybot: (+ 2 3)
09:29 rudybot: kingping: your sandbox is ready
09:29 rudybot: kingping: ; Value: 5
09:30 kingping: rudybot: (define plus2 ((curry +) 2))
09:30 rudybot: kingping: Done.
09:30 kingping: rudybot: (plus 2 5)
09:30 rudybot: kingping: error: reference to undefined identifier: plus
09:30 kingping: rudybot: (plus2 40)
09:30 rudybot: kingping: ; Value: 42
09:31 kingping: Thank thee rudybot
09:31 Demosthenes: i guess i've never "groked" the whole curry idea.
09:31 Demosthenes: like closures though
09:32 kingping: Demosthenes: It's funny ;-) But looks more natural in Haskell, especially with poinless notation.
09:33 kingping: Closures are tasty too, in Erlang ;)
09:33 kingping: *pointless
09:37 kingping: Demosthenes: Look, both definitions of call are identical here http://paste.lisp.org/+2J1T
09:40 kingping: Demosthenes: But currying saves you keytypes and allows to easily rewrite a combination.
09:40 kingping: You don't deal with arguments in the latter case.
09:43 (join) mheld
09:44 kingping: So, it's pretty easy.
09:45 kingping: This article may be useful http://www.engr.uconn.edu/~jeffm/Papers/curry.html
09:59 (quit) mheld: Quit: mheld
10:05 Demosthenes: kingping: hrm, still not grokking it ;]
10:05 Demosthenes: thats ok
10:05 Demosthenes: i'll just go take my macros and closures and play quietly in the corner.
10:05 kingping: Heheh you're going to do.
10:06 kingping: :-D
10:14 kingping: The best way to grok it is to imagine that all functions actually get just one argument.
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11:03 Lajla: So curry returns a curryable version of a function?
11:03 Lajla: How does that work with variable argument functions?
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11:52 Demosthenes: omg i'm in love.... i can compile scheme to speed up the startup time.
11:52 aLeSD: hi all
11:52 aLeSD: I am back
11:52 offby1: so you are
11:53 aLeSD: I am learning racket
11:53 aLeSD: do u have some examples to code "?
11:54 amacleod: http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-1.html
11:56 aLeSD: someone here know fluxus ?
11:57 offby1: rudybot: source
11:57 rudybot: *offby1: git clone git://github.com/offby1/rudybot.git
11:57 offby1: aLeSD: lots of code there :)
11:58 aLeSD: ok
11:59 aLeSD: someone has a simple program to make me code ?
12:00 offby1: aLeSD: http://programmingpraxis.com/ , http://projecteuler.net/
12:00 aLeSD: I will code it for free ....
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12:05 aLeSD: offby1 give me
12:05 aLeSD: I am just learning the language
12:07 Lajla: aLeSD, make a program that asks for a number n.
12:07 Lajla: and prints out all numbers starting from 0 up to and including n.
12:07 Lajla: and says 'error, your number is negative' if it's negative.
12:07 Lajla: and 'error, your number is not an integer' if it's not an integer.
12:07 Lajla: Or even 'error, this is not a number'
12:08 Lajla: I would like to point to the read function for reading numbers.
12:09 aLeSD: ok
12:09 aLeSD: I leave
12:09 (quit) aLeSD: Quit: Leaving
12:11 Lajla: He wasn't lying.
12:11 Lajla: He really left.
12:11 Lajla: offby1, would you be offended if I gave you a peck on the cheek?
12:13 offby1: brush your teeth first
12:18 Lajla: My teeth are cleaner than a macbook air
12:19 rapacity: probably isn't as shiny though
12:20 Lajla: My head hurts, like, I was playing SC2 just yet against this 3k rated dude.
12:20 Lajla: THat guy had the sickest marauder micro I ever had to face.
12:20 Lajla: He dodged all my psionic storms almost.
12:20 Lajla: And he emp'ed my sentries at the same time so I couldn't lay forcefields to stop him.
12:21 Lajla: The only thing remotely keeping me in the game was my phoenix multitasking and keeping to lift his SCV's.
12:21 Lajla: I'm sure this makes complete sense to all of you.
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13:08 Lajla: (3 . johnrafkind . 2)
13:08 Lajla: Look, you are an infix operator.
13:10 jonrafkind: unbound identifier in 'johnrafkind'
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13:22 Lajla: jonrafkind, run (define (johnrafkind . xs) (display "Je suis une pomme de terre")) first
13:22 jonrafkind: (theres no h in the real version)
13:23 Lajla: Oh yeah
13:23 Lajla: You're right?
13:23 Lajla: so you're Jonathan?
13:23 Lajla: Instead of John?
13:28 jonrafkind: <--
13:28 clklein: hidden in plain sight!
13:38 Lajla: jonrafkind, is your name Jonathan Rafkind?
13:38 Lajla: Or Jonraf Kind?
13:38 jonrafkind: Jo Nrafkind
13:38 Lajla: REminds me of that guy Kristiann Hrafnsson
13:39 Lajla: That name is awesome
13:39 Lajla: Ah, Kristinn
13:39 jonrafkind: ill name my child (build-list 5 (lambda () (string-ref "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" (random 26)))
13:40 Lajla: Don't you want to replace 5 with ((random 10) . + . 3) or something?
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18:01 MindFrog: hey guys can anyone tell me how to load SRFI 43 in MzScheme 372 thx in advance
18:05 jonrafkind: (require (lib srfi/43))) i think?
18:06 MindFrog: hm, I'm afraid not :/
18:06 MindFrog: > (require (lib srfi/43))
18:06 MindFrog: require: bad module path in: (lib srfi/43)
18:06 (quit) evhan: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
18:07 cky: jonrafkind: That syntax only works with 4.0+. :-(
18:08 cky must hunt down the instructions I got from eli a while ago re how to access old version documentation.
18:08 jonrafkind: (require (lib "srfi/43"))
18:08 (quit) amacleod: Quit: Bye Bye
18:08 MindFrog: already tried that
18:08 MindFrog: yeah I don't know why they insist in using 372 anyway cky :S
18:09 cky: Yeah, that's just nuts, since Racket is now at 5.0 now (and maybe 5.1 soon). :-P
18:09 cky: So, 372 is like 2 major versions behind. :-P
18:09 jonrafkind: MindFrog, what i just wrote didnt work? i tried it in mzscheme of 5.0, admitedly and it worked there
18:10 MindFrog: > (require (lib "srfi/43"))
18:10 MindFrog: open-input-file: cannot open input file: "C:\Program Files\PLT\collects\mzlib\srfi\43"
18:11 MindFrog: ok cky maybe I'll have to write a procedure to copy a vector, which will make my program really slower :x
18:11 jonrafkind: oh ok so its pretty close, try srfi/43.ss
18:12 cky: MindFrog: Here's a cheap implementation of vector-copy:
18:12 cky: (define (vector-copy vec) (list->vector (vector->list vec)))
18:12 cky: Yes, slow, but, it will work. :-P
18:12 MindFrog: (jonrafkind):
18:12 MindFrog: > (require (lib "srfi/43.ss"))
18:12 MindFrog: open-input-file: cannot open input file: "C:\Program Files\PLT\collects\mzlib\srfi\43.ss"
18:12 jonrafkind: ok what do you have in the srfi directory
18:12 cky: MindFrog: Of course, if you can use the SRFI 43 version, then that's best.
18:13 MindFrog: oh, I didn't know about list->vector, I was thinking about something even worse, like creating a loop that copied each vector-ref to a new vector ^^
18:14 MindFrog: well jonrafkind, now I saw that I don't really have a srfi directory, at least not in C:\Program Files\PLT\collects\mzlib
18:14 jonrafkind: oh right it shouldbe collects\srfi\43
18:15 jonrafkind: i mean mabye the (lib ...) form is the worng thing to use there
18:15 MindFrog: hah!
18:15 MindFrog: yeah, I can see it now
18:15 MindFrog: it's on C:\Program Files\PLT\collects\srfi\43
18:15 MindFrog: and in that folder I have vector-lib.ss, maybe that's what I need?
18:15 jonrafkind: yea
18:15 jonrafkind: but there is some standard way to require it
18:15 cky: Yep, now you just have to figure out how to load it. :-P
18:15 jonrafkind: without giving the whole path
18:16 cky: Indeed.
18:16 jonrafkind: ok hold on.. ill read the docs
18:16 MindFrog: ergh, sorry for giving you work
18:16 MindFrog: just tell me where the docs are I can search
18:16 MindFrog: I tried, but I didn't find it :/
18:17 jonrafkind: well in 372 you can run plt-help I think
18:18 MindFrog: I did
18:18 MindFrog: I searched for require
18:18 MindFrog: still trying to find something useful, a lot of topics came out on my search
18:18 jonrafkind: oh ok her ei tis
18:18 jonrafkind: (require (lib "43.ss" "srfi"))
18:19 jonrafkind: without the second argument to `lib' you get the mzlib collection by default
18:19 jonrafkind: and this is why it was changed to srfi/43
18:19 jonrafkind: since its more intuiative
18:19 MindFrog: ohhh, nice!!!!!!
18:20 MindFrog: cool, thank you so much jonrafkind
18:20 jonrafkind: word
18:20 MindFrog: I owe you one ;)
18:20 MindFrog: you too cky
18:20 cky: Yay! :-)
18:20 MindFrog: thanks
18:20 cky: :-)
18:22 MindFrog: great helping system ^^ ;)
18:22 MindFrog: congratulations
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