00:00 Lajla: I'm not the person that takes insults lightly, mind you.
00:00 jonrafkind: Lajla, did you know theres a #c channel?
00:00 Lajla: Demosthenex, but I get that you are trying to find out which lisp is the best for you?
00:00 Lajla: jonrafkind, yeah
00:00 jonrafkind: try telling them whats up
00:00 Lajla: I got into a fight there too.
00:00 Lajla: They called me too theoretical I think.
00:00 jonrafkind: i asked a question in there once and got insulted with a curse word, in record time
00:01 Lajla: jonrafkind, try telling the people in #racket though that it'snot an industry language.
00:01 Lajla: THey will have your head.
00:02 Lajla: jonrafkind, but you got to love (3 + 6)
00:03 Demosthenex: well, not exactly
00:03 Demosthenex: i want to learn lisp because of my emacs usage
00:03 Demosthenex: but i'm well aware that emacs' lisp is a hack...
00:04 Demosthenex: i read Practical Common Lisp and was impressed, and yes, #lisp says scheme/racket is all "educational"
00:04 Demosthenex: but i'd say CL is stagnant, out date, and completely overrun with patch after hack after patch
00:04 Demosthenex: CL really made the statement "lisp makes hard things easy, and easy things hard" true
00:04 Demosthenex: on the other hand, i was up and running in racket in minutes after compiling it
00:05 Demosthenex: i like lisp, i've been porting my perl tools over
00:05 Demosthenex: because perl just feels wrong now...
00:05 Demosthenex: but having to play the ASDF game jsut to get regexps... and the inability to package software. omg
00:05 jonrafkind: whats asdf
00:06 Demosthenex: CL's packager
00:06 Demosthenex: talk about a black art
00:06 jonrafkind: oh.. good name..
00:06 Demosthenex: good luck finding a gui lib
00:06 Demosthenex: that works
00:06 Demosthenex: and isn't dated from 1993
00:06 eli: jonrafkind: It's one of a few CL packaging systems, trying to cover up for the mess of not having separate phases.
00:07 jonrafkind: so it does some static analysis to figure out load order, or something?
00:07 Lajla: Demosthenex, you also dit clojure, right?
00:07 jonrafkind: http://sourceforge.net/projects/cl-sdl/ -- yea, this is kind of old
00:07 Lajla: Clojure is obviously the most modern.
00:07 Lajla: I have been told that the compiler is less-than-optimal though
00:08 Demosthenex: uh
00:08 Lajla: It was only made by one dude mainly, after all.
00:08 Demosthenex: i'm sorry, java gives me a rash
00:08 Demosthenex: i did look at newlisp, but it takes shortcuts
00:10 eli: jonrafkind: I don't have experience with it (came around after I was done with CL), but my guess is that there is no analysis, just manual labor.
00:10 eli: (And there cannot be any static analysis, only dynamic one.)
00:10 eli: To get a hint of the nightmare, see http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
00:10 Lajla: Demosthenex, well, Rich says 'it's okay to hate Java, but love the JVM'
00:11 Lajla: ओूAt least, that's his stance
00:11 Demosthenex: sorry, i deal with so many poor java apps, i won't use it
00:11 Lajla: I think both are ultimately the product of strict republican structiny of programmers as per their masterplan to make intellectuals dependent on the government which in turn is dependent on News Corp.
00:11 Demosthenex: riiiiiiiight
00:12 Lajla: Hey man, I got proof of this.
00:12 Lajla: If you look at this pic, the shadows are all off, Steele never went to Sun, he got replaced by a plant clone from other space.
00:12 jonrafkind: oh yes, i can fully appreciate how phases make life better
00:14 Demosthenex: Lajla: don't worry, its just a phase.
00:14 Lajla: What wot why?
00:14 Lajla does not fathom this deep obscure reference hereon made.
00:15 jonrafkind: btw eli ryan is working on adding a hook to the macro expander that passes all fully expanded forms to some function immediately after expanding them
00:16 jonrafkind: this allows you to do errortrace like annotations on syntax at higher phases
00:16 jonrafkind: i havent gotten a chance to test it yet, just thought you would be interested in its existence
00:16 Lajla: You're not going to explain it?
00:16 jonrafkind: me? what i just said?
00:17 jonrafkind: or Demosthenex
00:17 eli: jonrafkind: You mean a hook in the form of some dynamic `current-foo'?
00:17 jonrafkind: yea
00:17 eli: And when do you set that hook?
00:17 jonrafkind: im not sure exactly what it is, he said its similar to the stuff he did to make the macro stepper
00:18 jonrafkind: im not sure
00:18 eli: Isn't that kind of the same as using local-expand-*?
00:19 jonrafkind: but if you local-expand stuff you don't get to see macros at higher phases, you just get the phase 0 stuff back, right?
00:19 Lajla: jonrafkind, yeah, the phase thing.
00:20 jonrafkind: (let-syntax ([x (lambda (stx) (phase1-macro ...))]) (x)) ;; would expand `phase1-macro' without letting you observe it
00:20 eli: jonrafkind: But you could use a local expander in `phase1-macro' itself, no?
00:21 jonrafkind: you could, but what if you dont control phase1-macro
00:21 jonrafkind: or you mean (local-expand (phase1-macro ...)) ?
00:21 eli: Then you wrap the expression in your own macro that expands it.
00:21 eli: Yeah, that.
00:21 eli: In any case, I don't see how that would make errortrace better.
00:21 jonrafkind: yea but then you have to insert local-exapnd everywhere
00:22 jonrafkind: errortrace doesnt annotate anything at higher phases than 0
00:22 jonrafkind: so if you have a bug in a macro, you're doomed
00:22 jonrafkind: because the first thing errortrace does is call `expand' on your module
00:23 eli: But ... why would you want that?  The higher levels don't really need the same kind of details that you use at the runtime level.
00:23 jonrafkind: well.. says who. if you write reasonablly complex macros (i.e, not just syntax-rules) then you can have the same complexities in higher phases that you have at runtime
00:23 eli: And if you do have such a macro, you write the code and test it as usual, then `require-for-syntax' it into the macro level.
00:24 eli: ^^^
00:25 jonrafkind: i dunno i suppose
00:25 jonrafkind: i mean in honu land i need to let the macro expander work as usual
00:25 eli: OK.  I'll wait patiently.  (Tell him that it would be nice to write occasionally about such projects...)
00:25 jonrafkind: i can extract some parts out into regular functions, but i cant test the whole system like that
00:26 jonrafkind: but i suppose thats a good point, ill look into it more
00:27 jonrafkind: oh eli did paul stansifier give a talk or something about macros for infix languages at neu recently?
00:27 eli: There was such a talk recently.
00:27 jonrafkind: and.. what of it
00:27 jonrafkind: you didnt go?
00:27 eli: One talk in the semester that I'd really want to see, and I had a dentist appointment right in the middle.
00:28 jonrafkind: oh, did anyone else I know go? sam/carl/stevie?
00:28 eli: Probably.
00:28 jonrafkind: ok ill bug them
00:28 eli: I kind of made myself believe that I didn't lose much if eventually you'll get something better...
00:30 jonrafkind: well thats faith for you!
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01:36 rapacity: on typed/racket is there a way to make the type of (vector-immutable 1 "a") show as (Vector Integer String) instead of (Vectorof (U String Positive-Fixnum))
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02:57 eli: rapacity: Looks like a bug, you should report it.
02:59 rapacity: ok will do
03:13 eli: rapacity: Sorry, I should have told you that it is a bug, not a possible bug.
03:13 eli: For example, (ann (vector-immutable 1 "a") : (Vector Integer String)) should work.
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03:15 rapacity: ah :p I just sent a bug report
03:16 rapacity: but didn't include that example, I tried that line as well
03:16 eli: Yes, and it could have been more assertive...
03:16 eli: In the sense that there *is* something wrong.
03:16 eli: But the point will be clear anyway, I think.
03:16 rapacity: I'm lacking in self confidence :p
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03:30 jst: Hi, everyone! Maybe you guys can help me with this; I can't seem to find the answer in the docs: is there a function in Racket like the range(x) function in Python?
03:36 jst: Nevermind, I think I've found it.
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05:02 Guest74073: hey guys. in the language reference, you have functions like this: (p x y [#mode: mode-flag]) -> any
05:02 Guest74073: how do i use that mode-flag thingie?
05:05 Guest74073: for example, i naively tried just putting (open-output-file "C:\\file.txt" [#mode: 'binary])
05:05 Guest74073: into my program
05:05 Guest74073: which gives an error
05:06 rapacity: don't put [] around the mode
05:06 rapacity: (open-output-file "C:\\file.txt" #:mode 'binary)
05:07 rapacity: the [] in the docs are for optional arguments
05:10 Guest74073: oh, first when i tried that the compiler errored and said i gave too many arguments. removing the #:mode from the arguments fixed that
05:10 Guest74073: seems that i only needed (open-output-file "C:\\file.txt" 'binary)
05:10 Guest74073: thanks
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06:51 Ralak: hi i have a simple question, begin evaluates all expretions and gives the last expretion value
06:52 Ralak: is there something that can execute
06:52 Ralak: a sequence of instructions
06:52 Ralak: i can think of cicles
06:52 Ralak: but they do require a end expretion
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07:12 mije: geiser is cool.
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08:45 Guest74073: i got a simple question: how do i convert floating point values into exact integers?
08:46 Guest74073: truncate, floor and ceiling are no good, the remove the decimal places but still leave the value in floating point format, so 15.315 becomes 15.0, instead of the exact integet 15 that i need
09:00 Guest74073: found it: inexact->exact
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11:38 mije: does anybody know if it's possible to send a whole file in the repl for evaluation in geiser ?
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11:54 Lajla: rudybot, eval (inexact->exact1)
11:54 rudybot: Lajla: your sandbox is ready
11:54 rudybot: Lajla: error: reference to undefined identifier: inexact->exact1
11:54 Lajla: rudybot, eval (inexact->exact 1)
11:54 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: 1
11:54 Lajla: rudybot, eval (exact? 1)
11:54 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #t
11:55 Lajla: rudybot, eval (exact? "I worship his shadow")
11:55 rudybot: Lajla: error: exact?: expects argument of type <number>; given "I worship his shadow"
12:00 Lajla: rudybot, eval (define offby1 3)
12:00 rudybot: Lajla: Done.
12:01 Lajla: rudybot, eval (zero? offby1)
12:01 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #f
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13:08 offby1: :-(
13:10 offby1: rudybot: give Lajla offby1
13:10 rudybot: Lajla: offby1 has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive)
13:10 offby1: Lajla: actually, say ((GRAB)), with two sets of parens
13:10 offby1 whistles innocently
13:15 Lajla: ((GRAB))
13:15 Lajla: rudybot, eval ((GRAB))
13:15 rudybot: Lajla: Done.
13:17 Lajla: rudybot, eval (GRAB)
13:17 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #<procedure:offby1>
13:17 Lajla: Ahh
13:17 Lajla: offby1, what was that procedure?
13:17 Lajla: I take it that it has a side effect?
13:23 Lajla: rudybot, give offby1 (lambda () (set! + *))
13:23 rudybot: Lajla: error: eval:1:17: set!: cannot mutate module-required identifier in: +
13:23 Lajla: =(
13:23 Lajla: rudybot, give offby1 (lambda () (set! offby1 *))
13:23 rudybot: offby1: Lajla has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive)
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13:28 offby1 glances around nervously.
13:28 offby1: Lajla: no side effects at all!  What do I look like, a terrorist?!
13:29 offby1: ((GRAB))
13:29 offby1: rudybot: eval ((GRAB))
13:29 rudybot: offby1: Done.
13:29 offby1: rudybot: offby1
13:29 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: "Super-fantastic"
13:29 offby1 scratches head
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14:19 philo_: hi
14:19 philo_: is there a way to use chikens eggs on racket ?
14:42 offby1: no.
14:42 jonrafkind: you should make something that does that!
14:43 offby1: There's an app for that.
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14:55 artbez: Hello all. I'm a lone stuned who is stuyding HtDP book and I'm uncertain about correctness of my solutions for some exercizes. Is it a correct place to ask this kind of questions?
14:55 eli: artbez: You can ask questions here -- but for these kind of questions the mailing list is generally better.  See http://racket-lang.org/community.html
14:55 eli: (But please don't post solutions -- just ask questions...)
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16:01 hallihallo: how can i require packtes in racket which are in the same folder as the file
16:01 hallihallo: something like (require ./name) or so?
16:02 eli: (require "name.rkt")
16:05 hallihallo: thx
16:05 (quit) hallihallo: Quit: Page closed
16:10 Lajla: rudybot, eval (require "name.rkt")
16:10 rudybot: Lajla: your sandbox is ready
16:10 rudybot: Lajla: error: file-or-directory-modify-seconds: `read' access denied for /usr/local/src/rudybot/name.rkt
16:10 Lajla: Too bad. =(
16:10 Lajla: offby1, why haven't I this access?
16:10 Lajla: Explain yourself, young lady.
16:20 offby1: why _should_ you have that access?
16:20 offby1: .oO("Why does a Jew answer a question with a question?")
16:21 Lajla: offby1, so that I can read your files
16:21 Lajla: Philes
16:21 Lajla: Your paedofiles.
16:21 Lajla: I read them
16:21 Lajla: Like Chris Hansen
16:21 Lajla: Because remember, despite what the liberal media may tell you, being 18 years old and being attracted to a 17 year old is twisted and wrong.
16:29 em: hi guys
16:29 em: How do you get racket to read a text file and do stuff to it?
16:34 offby1: gosh
16:34 offby1: (call-with-input-file "/path/to/the/file" (lambda (ip) (do-stuff-with ip)))
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16:50 offby1: em: https://gist.github.com/738369
16:50 offby1: a working example
16:51 offby1: invoke it like "racket whatever.rkt /etc/passwd"
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17:13 mheld: hey y'all
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17:20 eli: mheld: You should look into the racket web server, it is very extensive, and is under continuous improvements.
17:22 mheld: I'm checking out the docs right now, continue?
17:27 eli: mheld: Yes, that's the tutorial, but see also the main two manuals -- one on servlets and one on the web server.
17:28 eli: Also, it might be better to use http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/ -- since there's a backward incompatible change that was done recently, and will be part of the nect release.
17:28 eli: (These things are very rare with the web server, but the change makes it easier to use any number of backends for genarating contents.)
17:29 eli: One such backend is similar to the language I'm using to make the course pages.
17:30 mheld: ah
17:30 mheld: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/web-server/index.html and http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/web-server-internal/index.html ?
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17:31 mattmight: Is there a way to disable the GC in Racket?
17:31 offby1: *gasp*
17:32 offby1: mattmight: wait, don't tell me: you've learned that the Iranian nuclear reactors have switched to Racket, and ...
17:32 mheld: is there an evented server in racket?
17:32 offby1 stares blankly
17:33 mattmight: mheld: One of my grad students looked at adding an evented server.
17:33 mattmight: It's no there right ow.
17:33 mheld: I'm guessing via frtime?
17:33 mattmight: offby1: I need to turn off the GC for benchmarking.  It's dominating my benchmarks at the moment.
17:34 offby1: mattmight: you could try forcing a gc before the benchmarked code, and then ... uh ... hoping that your code doesn't cause further gc ...
17:34 offby1 clears throat and gestures towards eli
17:35 mattmight: Tried that.  It seems to GC a lot even though it doesn't come close to running out of memory.
17:35 offby1: mattmight: but really, given that most normal code runs with gc enabled, don't you _want_ to know that gc is dominating your benchmarks?
17:35 mheld: (thanks eli)
17:35 offby1: isn't that very fact just the sort of thing you want to find out when you profile?
17:35 mattmight: I really need both numbers: with and without gc.
17:36 eli: mheld: Yes, those pages.
17:36 eli: mattmight: You could allocate some large pieces of memory, then remove all references and run a manual GC.
17:36 eli: mattmight: This is all questionable, since if your benchmarks are dominated by a GC, then it sounds like the numbers should be there...
17:37 eli: mheld: I don't know what that "evented" thing is, but it sounds like the opposite of frtime.
17:37 mattmight: eli: I want to know both numbers: with and without GC.
17:37 eli: mheld: In any case, if you want such things, then racket has a whole bunch of language support from them -- not only as high as frtime, there's CML channels, for example, thread mail queues, synchronizations, etc etc.
17:38 eli: mattmight: The usual `time' gives you the ime spent on GCing too -- so if you subtract that from the runtime you'd get an approximation of the time spent on non-gc work.
17:39 eli: mattmight: In fact, I have a "smart" time replacement that will run the code a few times, then drop some of the extreme highs and lows, then average the rest -- and it displays the subtracted number too, because it's easy to miss cases where the GC is the biggest offender.
17:40 eli: mattmight: (That's part of my interactive hack, which you can get at barzilay.org/hack.html, and the command for that is ",time")
17:40 mattmight: Thanks, eli.  I'll have a look at the smart time, too.
17:40 mattmight: My concern is that the gc might be wrecking things like the cache.
17:41 offby1: I think you mean http://barzilay.org/misc/interactive.rkt
17:45 eli: mattmight: It most certainly will not make the cache happy...  But disabling it sounds to me like a form of cheating -- unless the conclusion is that there are cases where it's worth it to have a switch to disable GCing...
17:45 eli: offby1: Yeah, I meant barzilay.org/hacks.html which points at that file...
17:46 mheld: eli: instead of having a thread for each connection, you have a single thread manage everything asynchronously
17:46 mattmight: eli: I agree that you've got to run it with GC on, but if too-frequent GCs are costing me, then that's important to know.  It suggests routes to optimization.
17:47 eli: mheld: While it's possible to do that (see `sync'), there's a much weaker point to do it when you have green threads.  I don't remember the exact cost of a racket thread but it was somewhere on the neighborhood of 10k.
17:47 eli: mattmight: So try the large allocation thing.
17:48 eli: mattmight: Or, in an extreme case, go and tweak the sources -- I think that Matthew wrote about the place to start doing that.
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18:35 mattmight: eli: I tried the large allocation thing.  It didn't seem to work.
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20:27 eli: mattmight: There might be a difference between a huge vector and a huge list, they might be allocated on different kinds of pages.  (I don't remember more details about the GC...)
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20:40 Demosthenex: eli: thanks again. having a basic example i can read, combined with that tr365 paper, syntax is starting to make more sense
20:47 eli: Demosthenex: No problems.
20:58 Demosthenex: eli: you know what would have really helped
20:58 Demosthenex: is a tutorial where they broke out the syntax function instead of using #' as a shortcut immediately
20:58 Demosthenex: #' != obvious
21:00 jonrafkind: whats even less obvious is when you see things like #'#'foo
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21:05 eli: Demosthenex: Yes, a tutorial would be nice, but those things are hard to write.
21:05 eli: As for #' -- it's probably clearer for semi-newbies, who can draw the analogy to ' -- it's unfortunate that CLers get confused because there #' is so different.
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21:11 Demosthenex: perhaps
21:11 Demosthenex: man, i'm close to creating a snippet of code from a list in syntax, and haven't figured out where the extra quoting is coming from ;]
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22:09 Demosthenex: http://pastebin.com/AgiYNXVz
22:09 Demosthenex: right, why in the world is each list elemeting being quoted?
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22:42 eli: Demosthenex: ping
22:44 (quit) parcs: Read error: Operation timed out
22:47 Demosthenex: eli: sir
22:47 eli: Demosthenex: You have a bunch of issues there.
22:47 eli: First, your indentation is, well, pretty bad...
22:47 eli: I had to reindent everything to be able to read it.
22:48 eli: Second, don't use (syntax-e #'fields) and expect it to be a list.
22:48 eli: The thing is that these syntax-objects can wrap the tail of the list too.
22:48 Demosthenex: eli: i'm learning. and yeah, the paste was terribel on spacing
22:48 eli: So you could have a syntax object that has as its `syntax-e' a value of (cons 123 #<another-syntax-object>)
22:49 eli: This makes it look like even pulling out a list would be difficult,
22:49 eli: but there's a `syntax->list' function that does just that.
22:49 eli: And incidentally, it returns #f if the syntax cannot be made into a list.
22:50 eli: This is important in your code, since you don't check that `fields' is a list.
22:50 Lajla: Demosthenex, so you've chosen scheme and forfeit CL?
22:50 Lajla: Good, we like that.
22:50 Lajla: We have the power to save the ones you love you know.
22:50 eli: Demosthenex: To continue, you have two syntax results from your macro.
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22:50 eli: This is probably not what you want.
22:51 eli: Instead, you should always return a single expression,
22:51 eli: for example #'(begin (define this ...) (define that ...))
22:52 eli: BTW, to check that the fields is a list, you can use a pattern of: (_ name (field ...))
22:52 eli: And then you can use (syntax->list #'(field ...)) to get a guaranteed list.
22:52 Demosthenex: Lajla: *laugh*
22:53 Demosthenex: ok!
22:53 Demosthenex: cool
22:53 eli: Demosthenex: In any case, your worst problem (which is how you get that error), is a confusion that would be the same with a CL defmacro.
22:54 eli: You construct `mylist' as a list of strings,
22:54 eli: and then you use that in the output.
22:54 Lajla: Demosthenex, aha, you've fallen for my trap.
22:54 Lajla: You watched the praequels.
22:54 Lajla: Not cool kid, not cool.
22:54 eli: So your *output* expression looks like: (lambda () (displayln (apply string-append ("aa" "ba" "ca"))))
22:54 eli: You could just use 'mylist in the output, which would make it:
22:55 eli: (lambda () (displayln (apply string-append '("aa" "ba" "ca"))))
22:55 eli: But at this point I think that your best way to proceed is to switch to drracket, and use the macro stepper.
22:55 eli: ...and now I have to go.
22:57 Demosthenex: i appreciate the insight!
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23:28 Demosthenex: here's a question, is there really any difference between () and [] other than for legibility? in cond and let statements they're nice... just wondering if i have to handle them in syntax
23:32 offby1: no difference, as far as I know.
23:34 jonrafkind: it is possible to tell the difference between () and [] in a macro though, you can get a syntax property to determine if it was a (, [, or {
23:36 Lajla: jonrafkind, really?
23:36 jonrafkind: yea
23:36 Lajla: So the reader destinghuishes.
23:36 Lajla: Meh
23:36 Lajla: I think that'sa bad idea.
23:37 Lajla: jonrafkind, go change this.
23:37 Lajla: Now.
23:37 Lajla: Else my wrath shall be upon thee.
23:37 Lajla: The fire from the havens shall rain upon thy land, thy brethren shall be consumed by the ire of the skies.
23:37 jonrafkind: im waiting for the addition of constructors and destructors to `define-struct'
23:38 Lajla: Well, I'm waiting until being republican becomes illegal.
23:38 Lajla: It's a long wait.
23:38 Lajla: They can vote and all, so it's a vicious circle.
23:45 (quit) mheld: Quit: mheld