00:00 Kevin_: well, I don't actually have to get this working or anything
00:00 Kevin_: I just need to understand the process of how such a thing would work
00:00 askhader: For which class is this?
00:00 Kevin_: so I guess important techincal aspects are the protocol that you mentioned
00:01 Kevin_: it's for a business class actually
00:02 askhader: Ah I see.
00:02 Kevin_: but I really appreciate your help
00:03 askhader: Gah my internet ju
00:04 askhader: just got shitty* It's m y pleasure.
00:04 Kevin_: haha, yeah, thanks for all the explination
00:05 askhader: Sure thing, feel free to ask again anytime.
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00:16 eli: tewk: foo_pointer
00:20 mapcadr: I don't understand call-with-current-continuation
00:20 mapcadr: is there a good web page on it?
00:31 jonrafkind: i think matt might had some good pages on it
00:31 jonrafkind: http://matt.might.net/articles/by-example-continuation-passing-style/
00:44 tewk: eli this is the code I want translated to ffi syntax
00:44 tewk: (10:43:57 PM) kevintew: BN *a = BNnew();
00:44 tewk: (10:44:14 PM) kevintew: BNhex2bn(&a)
00:44 tewk: (10:44:19 PM) kevintew: translate that to ffi
00:46 eli: tewk: So it's a pointer to a pointer.
00:49 jonrafkind: explanation a++++++
00:51 eli: jonrafkind: (a) tewk's original question was how to "pass the address of cstruct to a function", that's the pointer thing I was referring to, now he's talking about a pointer to a pointer, which should be like any other pointer to whatever.
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08:02 Lajla: eli, danke sehr, but I was just wondering if it existed in Racket already.
08:03 Lajla: Aslo, do you actually in all your devotion to the well-being of this channel read it all back when you come back? the entire backlog?
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16:51 cscheid: Hey, is there a simple way to make the standard PLT Racket webserver serve XML? My xexpr is getting decoded correctly, but I can't find how to make the server describe the content-type as text/xml instead of text/html
16:53 jeapostrophe_: make-xexpr-response #:preamble
16:55 cscheid: ah, make-xexpr-response, great. The docs don't mention a preamble keyword, though, http://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/http.html?q=make-xexpr#(def._((lib._web-server/http/response-structs..rkt)._make-xexpr-response))
16:56 cscheid: I'm sure the way around this will be via make-xexpr-response, though. Thanks!
16:57 jeapostrophe_: the new version has it
16:58 cscheid: not 5.0.2, though?
16:58 jeapostrophe_: maybe it was after the freeze
16:58 jeapostrophe_: also look at making full responses
16:59 eli: jeapostrophe_: re all that, maybe it's time to divorce the web server f
16:59 eli: rom xexprs?
17:00 jeapostrophe_: i'm not sure what you mean, nothing it in relies on them
17:00 eli: I'm talking about being able to produce output in any way, without defaulting to xexpr outputs.
17:00 eli: Lajla: I was pointing out that it's easy to implement, but the important part is in having others use it.
17:01 jeapostrophe_: that's already there
17:01 (join) Samy
17:01 cscheid: maybe if the documentation had an example of make-responde and friends it'd be enough
17:01 cscheid: make-response
17:01 cscheid: if it showed up right away in the tutorial I wouldn't be bugging you guys with the question.
17:01 jeapostrophe_: what do you find confusing? you give it the bytes you want sent out
17:02 Lajla: eli, if you put a gun to enough people's head, it might give PLaneT more documentation though. =(
17:02 jeapostrophe_: gtg
17:02 (quit) jeapostrophe_: Quit: jeapostrophe_
17:02 cscheid: All of the examples use xexprs, I believe. That certainly accounts for my confusion.
17:03 eli: Lajla: But that's the problem -- nobody will use guns since it's not clear what's the best way to store that information.
17:03 Samy: Hi at all,   i did a list-of-lists and recevie  values with assoc + key. Works fine. But  only one pair dont work, (. Stop) , (assoc '. *buchstabiertafel*) dont hove me Stop   why ?
17:04 Lajla: eli, you mean people disagree about how to best document undocumented and unuseable programming marvel?
17:04 Samy: I cant  compile a List   (.  Stop)  why ?  illegal use of "."
17:04 eli: Samy: . by itself is not a valid symbol, you can use |.| or \. if you really want to.
17:05 eli: Lajla: No, how to store that documentation.
17:05 Lajla: Well,t hat was sort of what I meant.
17:05 Lajla: Hmm
17:05 Lajla: Life is hard.
17:06 Lajla: I'd go for docstrings or some uselessly complificated RDF though
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17:09 (join) Samy
17:10 Samy: I cant  compile my list (. Stop) .  How i can use . in a list ?
17:10 (part) cscheid
17:10 jonrafkind: Samy, eli> Samy: . by itself is not a valid symbol, you can use |.| or \. if you really want to.
17:11 Samy: this dont work
17:11 jonrafkind: what did you type
17:11 Samy: now i can compile  but
17:11 Samy: if i want it to receive with (assoc '. *buchstabiertafel*)
17:11 Samy: nothing happes
17:11 Samy: no errors, nothing
17:12 jonrafkind: (assoc '|.| (list (list '|.| 'foo)))
17:12 jonrafkind: '(|.| foo)
17:12 jonrafkind: . byitself is a reader thing so to escape the reader you have to use |.|
17:13 jonrafkind: or '\. works too
17:13 (quit) Lajla: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
17:14 Samy: Is there a Method  to  use assoc .  with out \ ?   Because  \. and .  are different things in my list
17:14 eli: rudybot: (cons '\. |.|)
17:14 rudybot: eli: your "http://tmp.barzilay.org/x" sandbox is ready
17:14 rudybot: eli: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: |.| in module: 'anonymous-module
17:14 eli: rudybot: (cons '\. '|.|)
17:14 rudybot: eli: ; Value: (|.| . |.|)
17:14 eli: Samy: Like that
17:15 eli: rudybot: '((x . y) (\. . "dot") (|.| . "another dot"))
17:15 rudybot: eli: ; Value: ((x . y) (|.| . "dot") (|.| . "another dot"))
17:15 eli: or that.
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17:31 Samy: I want use  (assoc 'a list) I mean with lower case. But in my list all values are written with large case ( A B C....)  Is there a trick   to transform lower case to  large?
17:32 Samy: (assoc 'a list) and  (assoc 'A list) must gove me the same value
17:33 jonrafkind: you could uppercase the thing you are searching for
17:33 jonrafkind: (assoc (upper-case-symbol 'a) list)
17:33 offby1: use something other than "assoc"; find an equivalent that lets you choose the equality procedure.
17:33 offby1: rudybot: doc assoc
17:33 rudybot: *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready
17:34 rudybot: *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/pairs.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._assoc))
17:34 jonrafkind: (define (upper-case-symbol s) (string->symbol (string (char-upcase (string-ref (symbol->string s) 0))))
17:34 offby1: I'd use "assf", and write a (symbols-ci-equal?) procedure
17:38 jonrafkind: id stay away from anything that resembles assoc entirely
17:39 offby1: *gasp*
17:40 jonrafkind: what good is assoc for other than adhoc structures made out of lists
17:58 Samy: How can i split a word in  letters? Example.  " Test" -> T ->  e->   s ->  t  ?
17:58 (quit) hanDerPeder: Quit: hanDerPeder
17:59 Lajla: Samy, you mean split a string into characters?
17:59 Lajla: Or a symbol into its characters?
18:00 Samy: String
18:00 Samy: String -> charcter
18:00 Lajla: Ahh
18:00 Lajla: Well, depends on how you want to collect the characters.
18:01 Lajla: But if you want them in a list, then string->list is what you want.
18:01 Lajla: Like (string->list "Obama") ===> (#\O #\b #\a #\m #\a)
18:01 Samy: Ok i already testes string->list  output for input:racket ist #\R #\a #\c #\k #\e #\t
18:01 Samy: Yes
18:02 Lajla: Seems right.
18:02 Samy: but  i want  O  b a m a with out  #\
18:02 Lajla: #\x is the notation for a character.
18:02 Lajla: THey aren't symbols
18:02 Samy: Hmm ok
18:02 Lajla: It's how you write characters down in Racket.
18:02 Lajla: See #\a like 'a' in C.
18:02 jonrafkind: you can call (string #\x) to get the string "x"
18:02 Lajla: Yap.
18:03 Lajla: Or (string #\a #\b #\c) to get "abc"
18:03 jonrafkind: whoa nelly
18:03 Lajla: a is the scheme/racket notation for a symbol whose only character is #\a
18:03 Lajla: jonrafkind, don't mock me. =(
18:03 Lajla: I'll tell mummy.
18:05 Samy: Is there a difference between   a character  and a string ?
18:06 Lajla: Ys
18:06 Lajla: Yes*
18:06 Lajla: A character is a single letter.
18:06 Lajla: A string is a collection of letters in an order.
18:06 Lajla: Like #\a is different from "a"
18:06 Lajla: "a" is a string which contains only one character
18:06 Lajla: You can also have the empty string ""
18:06 Lajla: A string which contains no characters whatsoever.
18:07 Lajla: Like (string-length "a") ===> 1
18:07 Lajla: (string-length #\a) ===> ERROR
18:08 jonrafkind: the difference between strings and symbols is getting quite thin I would say
18:08 jonrafkind: it seems that symbols were invented because they could be dealt with faster than strings
18:08 jonrafkind: but these days i wonder if there is any real performance pentaly
18:09 Samy: Hmm   look i have, (assoc (upper-case-symbol 'a) *buchstabiertafel*)  this gibe me output  Alpha. vor other letters i have another definitions like b is Beta ....
18:09 Lajla: jonrafkind, hmm
18:10 Lajla: doesn't equal? on strings recursively check it?
18:10 Samy: I want type a word  like  "ab"   my programm must  split ist  to a  and b  and  give me output  Alpha Beta
18:10 jonrafkind: you mean checks each character individually?
18:10 Lajla: While eqv? on symbol sort of maintains a table internally
18:10 Lajla: jonrafkind, yeah
18:10 jonrafkind: but you could imagine the same thing for a string
18:10 Lajla: instead of a simple memory location or what-not
18:10 Lajla: Yeah
18:10 jonrafkind: "1234" is indexed into some table
18:10 jonrafkind: java does that I think
18:10 jonrafkind: so it would be the same lookup as a symbol
18:10 Lajla: jonrafkind, well, the difference is I guess that mutable symbols don't exist.
18:11 jonrafkind: I suppose mutable strings are a different thing, but basically those are just vectors of characters
18:11 Lajla: Samy, ahhh
18:11 Lajla: Yeah, you can do that.
18:11 Lajla: But do you want Alpha and Beta to be symbols or strings?
18:11 Lajla: Or characters?
18:11 jonrafkind: but immutable strings vs immutable symbols seems like a strange thing to have
18:11 Lajla: jonrafkind, yeah, I agree.
18:11 Samy: Strings
18:11 jonrafkind: well all the string* functions should just work on symbols, i dont see why not
18:12 Lajla: Clojure has keywords, symbols, and strings, and they are all immutable and all basically come down to the same...
18:12 Lajla: Samy, well, and your output
18:12 Lajla: do you want that as a list?
18:12 Lajla: The collection
18:13 Samy: I have already lists   '( (A Alfa)                               (B Bravo)                               (C Charlie)
18:14 jonrafkind: well keywords are slightly different from symbols and strings
18:16 Samy: Laila i dont know   when i call asoc  a .  i get Alfa   i dont know what alfa now is  list or something else
18:17 Lajla: Samy: http://codepad.org/LVHSZhit
18:17 Lajla: jonrafkind, in what way?
18:17 jonrafkind: because they interact with function application in a special way
18:17 Lajla: Ahhh
18:17 Lajla: Well, not in clojure I fear.
18:17 jonrafkind: well clojure is lame
18:18 Lajla: But well, symbols follow different evaluation rules.
18:18 jonrafkind: symbols and strings have the same evaluation rules
18:18 jonrafkind: which is eval(x) => x
18:18 Lajla: I agree, but whenever I say them that, they get all emotional and say it's because I don't understand it and should go back to java.
18:18 jonrafkind: thats called confidence
18:18 Lajla: Don't symbols evaluate to whatever they are bound to in that environment/
18:19 jonrafkind: well.. no, symbols are used during compilation to find the lexical structure of the program, but you can have symbols at runtime using quote
18:19 jonrafkind: i mean (let ([x 2]) 'x) is not 2
18:20 rmitt: IMHO, symbols and strings are two very different things, and it would be sad for the distinction to be lost.
18:21 Lajla: Samy: http://codepad.org/VSGIhuAS
18:21 Lajla: jonrafkind, some would say that 'x is not a symbol but a list.
18:22 jonrafkind: rmitt, what is that difference?
18:22 rmitt: how would you convert "hi, babe" to a symbol?
18:22 Lajla: rmitt, symbols can contain spaes.
18:22 Samy: how  i can send  pm here ?
18:23 rmitt: and what about the semantic difference?
18:23 Lajla: Samy, you go "/msg Lajla you have deliciously nice boobs"
18:23 jonrafkind: what semantic difference
18:23 jonrafkind: its essentially like having two different classes of strings
18:23 jonrafkind: string1 and string2 and claiming its important to have both
18:24 rmitt: Lajla: pipes are ugly......jonrafkind: I mean evaluation rules.   Btw, as Lajla observed, 'a is not the printed representation of a symbol.
18:24 Lajla: Well, there is a difference in the evaluatio.
18:24 jonrafkind: what difference in evaluation
18:24 Lajla: If you read 'symbol into the reader and ask list? on it, you'll get true.
18:24 Lajla: And if you ask symbol? on it you get false.
18:24 rmitt: jonraf: for heavens' sake, you know what I mean :-)
18:25 jonrafkind: no i really dont
18:25 jonrafkind: they both have the same evaluation rules
18:25 Lajla: rmitt, I think he means that 'quote is a symbol.
18:25 Lajla: However, it is not.
18:25 Lajla: IT's a list
18:25 Lajla: that evaluates to a symbol,.
18:25 jonrafkind: the only difference is in the implementation, whre you have some symbol* and a string* structure
18:25 rmitt: the quote mark is most certainly not a symbol
18:25 Lajla: But Racket traditionally wrties symbols as epressions that evaluate to them, I guess.
18:25 jonrafkind: numbers also have the same evaluation rules as symbols and strings, but because they have a completely different set of operations that can be done on them they are rightfully a different datatype
18:25 rmitt: jonrafkind: I mean simply that strings evaluate to themselves, whereas symbols evaluate to a lookup.
18:26 jonrafkind: symbols evaluate to themselves.. 'a => 'a
18:26 Lajla: To say that 's is a symbol is like saying that (if 'true (string->symbol "blabla")) is a symbol.
18:26 rmitt: ok, once again: 'a is not the printed representation of a symbol.  Furthermore, one SHOULD have 'a => a, and not 'a => 'a.
18:27 rmitt: But I fear this last "should" will provoke ire in some.
18:27 jonrafkind: if i could tell the repl i want to enter "symbol mode" then I could just type 'a' and it would print 'a' again
18:27 jonrafkind: i dont see what the reader has to do with it
18:27 Lajla: jonrafkind, is: (string->symbol "Jonrafkind") a symbol?
18:27 jonrafkind: yea
18:28 Lajla: jonrafkind, is (a b c d) a list?
18:28 jonrafkind: no
18:28 rmitt: Lajla: of course it's a symbol.
18:28 Lajla: jonrafkind, is (list a b c d) a list/
18:28 rmitt: jonrafkind: how does one enter "symbol mode"?
18:28 jonrafkind: yes..
18:28 jonrafkind: no repl i know of has 'symbol mode' but i could probably write it
18:28 Lajla: jonrafkind, if I do (define a list)
18:28 Lajla: Or did that beforehand
18:28 Lajla: Will you revise your answer?
18:29 jonrafkind: yea
18:29 rmitt: jonrafkind: thank you for talking R6RS with me from now on :-)
18:29 Lajla: Alright, I so got this
18:29 Lajla: I think my way is cooler, because ti doesn't depend on environments and definitions.
18:30 Lajla: I mean, who stops me from going (define-syntax quote (syntax-rules () ((_ x) (list x))) all over the place.
18:30 Lajla: Ehh
18:30 Lajla: ))
18:30 jonrafkind: that would make it annoying to get a symbol
18:30 jonrafkind: but you still have string-.symbol
18:32 jonrafkind: ok maybe I should say that strings could just be quoted symbols, "foo" == 'foo
18:33 jonrafkind: so you can still get the symbol x or the list (quote foo)
18:35 Lajla: jonrafkind, what happens when expressions become nontrivial?
18:35 jonrafkind: the universe explodes
18:36 Lajla: Or when expressions do not terminate.
18:36 Lajla: But do produce some handy side effects?
18:36 jonrafkind: so what
18:36 Lajla: I'm trying to make you see the nonsensicality of aequating a datum to what it evaluates to.
18:36 Lajla: I'm just saying
18:36 Lajla: what is (let loop (()) (loop))?
18:36 Lajla: Or (1 2 3 4)
18:36 Lajla: Both are lists as far as I go.
18:36 jonrafkind: (let loop ...) is not a datum
18:37 jonrafkind: neither is (1 2 3 4)
18:37 jonrafkind: '(1 2 3 4) is though
18:37 jonrafkind: what else is an atomic expression going to evaluate to if not itself?
18:39 rmitt: good night
18:39 Lajla: jonrafkind,
18:39 Lajla: if it's not a datum
18:39 (quit) rmitt: Quit: Page closed
18:39 Lajla: Why does the special form quote accept it?
18:39 Lajla: Let's say I let-syntax something over quote.
18:40 Lajla: THen 'x can be two different things in your opinion depending on where it is in the program source.
18:40 jonrafkind: yes but after macro expansion then datum's evaluate to themselves
18:42 Lajla: jonrafkind, another thing
18:42 Lajla: Why don't I make '('a 'b 'c 'd) to make a list of symbols?
18:43 jonrafkind: because the quote becomes a symbol itself
18:44 offby1: rudybot: eval '('a 'b 'c 'd)
18:44 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: ((quote a) (quote b) (quote c) (quote d))
18:44 Lajla: Wel, yeah, duhh.
18:44 offby1: tricky
18:45 Lajla: jonrafkind, how about this one:
18:45 Lajla: (let ('+) '3)
18:45 Lajla: I mean, I'm just saying, there are some things that make your model of this quite complicated.
18:46 Lajla: (let ('string (x #\a)) 'x)
18:46 jonrafkind: huh
18:47 Lajla: jonrafkind, try it
18:47 Lajla: it works
18:47 Lajla: (let ((quote string) (x #\a)) (quote x))
18:47 Lajla: Same thing
18:48 jonrafkind: oh right, so what
18:48 jonrafkind: thats an abuse of the reader + let
18:48 Lajla: Maybe, I'd not call it good programming practice.
18:49 Lajla: But it's valid and it's example of why your view on things makes things complicated.
18:49 Lajla: If you just substitute the word 'is' for 'evaluates to in the standard top level environment' I'm cool
18:50 askhader: Where can I find the source of functions defined in packages like say net/cgi ?
18:55 Lajla: Oh wow, a practical quaestion
18:56 Lajla: askhader, I don't know. But I think jonrafkind would love to help you out
18:56 jonrafkind: plt/collects/net/cgi.rkt
18:56 Lajla: See
18:56 Lajla: He is a one man wonder.
18:58 askhader: =]]
18:58 askhader: For one more, any of you know where I can get a nice plugin for racket functionaility in vim? =]
18:59 (quit) jao: Remote host closed the connection
18:59 jonrafkind: well vim used to have a mzscheme pipe or something
18:59 jonrafkind: i dont know if it was upgraded to racket
18:59 askhader: jonrafkind: What do you use for editting racket?
18:59 jonrafkind: of course, i also wrote some vim bindings to drracket if you want
18:59 askhader: ++
18:59 jonrafkind: usually i use vim, sometimes drracket
19:00 jonrafkind: what, ++ means yes you want it?
19:00 askhader: vim bindings to dr racket you say?
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19:00 jonrafkind: year
19:00 jonrafkind: yar
19:00 askhader: How does that work?
19:00 askhader: =P
19:00 jonrafkind: they are quite incomplete though
19:00 jonrafkind: basically you just capture allt he key presses and do something with them
19:00 askhader: vim bindings in drracket or vice cersa?
19:00 jonrafkind: vim bindings in drracket
19:00 askhader: Oh t'is no good for me. I need a CLI solution D=
19:00 askhader: And even the vim default syntax highlighting for scheme sucks dick.
19:00 jonrafkind: http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/if_mzsch.html
19:01 askhader: Er
19:01 askhader: Excuse my language
19:01 askhader: =P
19:01 Lajla: Fancy kis
19:01 jonrafkind: did you use 'set lisp' ?
19:01 askhader: I sometimes forget where i am.
19:01 Lajla: REal men use edlin
19:01 askhader: ... No
19:01 askhader looks
19:01 jonrafkind: set lisp fixes most of the indentation and color problems
19:01 askhader: Okay cool
19:01 jonrafkind: but it still screws things a few things up
19:01 jonrafkind: its good enough for me usually
19:01 askhader: Yeah I'm /reallllly/ tempted to get that vim if_mzsch
19:02 jonrafkind: to do what though, have a repl inside vim?
19:02 askhader: Yeah man
19:02 askhader: That would be brilliant.
19:02 askhader: I may seldom leave vim if it's worth a damn
19:03 askhader: racket has some great libraries for interacting with the filesystem =]
19:04 askhader: Hm, I don't really notice set lisp doing anything =P
19:04 askhader: Not indent conditionals or anything
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19:11 ari__: hi
19:11 offby1: Lies.
19:13 Lajla: askhader, you don'tlike edlin?
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19:15 ari__: who here is amazing at drracket
19:16 askhader is not familiar with edlin
19:20 mapcadr: i am a giraffe. i ahev a long nek an i pick berries off trees w/ my mouf. if u dont repost this comment on 10  other pages i will poke my head through your window while you sleep and watch you all night
19:20 Lajla: askhader, the good old days before syntax highlighting or cursors
19:20 askhader shudders
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19:32 (part) ari__
19:34 (join) ari___
19:40 ari___: help epoepl
19:42 Lajla: So like, jonrafkind, you had me thinking.
19:42 Lajla: That toy lisp I am working on.
19:42 Lajla: It has immutable strings.
19:43 Lajla: It lacks mutable strings, for one.
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20:11 ari___: hey
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20:28 Scorpio: hey guys can someone help me ? :D
20:30 Scorpio: i have a module which defines special flags to a letter (char)
20:30 Scorpio: now i need to change the flags, so the letter can get other flags as they started with
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20:40 Scorpio: need help guys :D
20:40 Scorpio: it shouldnt take too long for you guys
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20:57 askhader: Is there a way to abbreiate a list of strings?
20:58 jeapostrophe_: '("foo" "bar")?
21:00 Lajla: askhader, what do you mean with abbreviate here?
21:00 askhader: Ah thanks
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21:31 askhader: Have any of you come across scheme libraries for performing operations with id3 tags on media files?
21:31 askhader: slash racket
21:37 askhader: guess I'll have to write my own around id3lib
21:40 Lajla: askhader, if you make them
21:40 Lajla: do give me.
21:42 askhader: I've never written bindings/ported to scheme but have wanted to for a while.
21:55 eli: jeapostrophe: ping
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22:35 askhader: What's the easiest way to grab the output of a (system ..) call?
22:39 offby1: there's a whole matrix of functions for getting output from a subprocess.
22:40 offby1: rudybot: doc subprocess
22:40 rudybot: *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/subprocess.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._subprocess))
22:41 offby1: askhader: browse that page; there are a lot of options.
22:41 askhader browses.
22:43 offby1: browse faster!
22:44 askhader: o.o;;
23:41 (quit) Lajla: Read error: Connection reset by peer
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