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09:51 samth: em, Racket is almost exactly like PLT Scheme
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12:56 jay-mccarthy: offby1: he's in israel and afk
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13:48 clklein: There's an all-Racket session at OOPSLA: http://splashcon.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=122:oopsla-12-scheme&catid=47:oopsla-research-papers&Itemid=67
13:48 (notice) rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/2f8sb4m
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13:50 jonrafkind: was that planned?
13:51 jonrafkind: oh, the session is just called "scheme"
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14:12 samth: clklein, that's rather unfortunate
14:13 clklein: the naming or the scheduling?
14:13 samth: well, both, but i was thinking of the schedule
14:15 clklein: yea
14:28 jay-mccarthy: this is very lame
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15:17 samth: it's similar at IFL
15:22 samth: vincent and i are both at the end, and neil is in the next-to-last session
15:22 samth: and vincent and my talks are not related at all
15:35 jay-mccarthy: weird
15:35 jay-mccarthy: we just found a really deep bug in the c reader/writer
15:36 jay-mccarthy: (not the one for the recent patch... a bigger one)
15:38 samth: shocking, complicated c code has lingering bugs even after 15 years
15:41 stamourv: apparently, a paper about match fits in a session about static analysis
15:49 jay-mccarthy: mflatt agrees that it is a bug but thinks it is a different bug
15:59 jonrafkind: jay-mccarthy, its interesting that your coding guidelines have nothing to do with actually coding. i thought you were giong to make some guidelines about the style of code
16:03 samth: jay-mccarthy, following your coding guidelines would be a fairly radical departure from the way most of the code in racket is written
16:04 samth: as in, basically no code has stress tests, almost all bugs don't have tests associated with them, and none of our internals are documented
16:04 jay-mccarthy: jonrafkind: maybe it should be called "Ensuring Code Quality" or "Push Guidelines"
16:05 jay-mccarthy: samth: I believe I was given this mission because that status quo is bad and isn't sustainable in the future
16:07 clklein: Are we off the "worse is better" train?
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16:44 samth: jay-mccarthy, i don't think jumping from the status quo to where your document is is sustainable
16:46 samth: none of the last 5 commits contained any tests at all
16:46 samth: just as an example
16:48 jay-mccarthy: i think it would be an incremental movement
16:48 samth: and none of mflatt's commits on the front page of drdr have any tests
16:48 samth: if that's the intent, then the document should say that
16:49 jay-mccarthy: by incremental i mean that going forward changes come with these things
16:49 samth: ok, but i don't think there's buy-in for that to happen
16:50 jay-mccarthy: i'm not sure why you say that when there has be no anti-buy-in on the list and only you here
16:51 samth: i say that because i haven't noticed any of us with lots of new time to do more than we're currently doing, or explicit desire that would cause people to write less code
16:51 samth: in favor of writing more tests
16:52 samth: another way to put it is to say that everyone agrees this would be a good idea, but i'm skeptical that this will really start happening
16:54 jay-mccarthy: i'm very optimistic and if we have ideals then we can even talk about when people don't meet the ideal
16:54 samth: right, but if our ideals are too high, then when no one meets the ideals, we won't see that as such a problem
16:55 samth: for example, right now, there are 0 tests for slideshow
16:55 samth: if i want to fix something in slideshow, am i really going to write a test harness?
16:55 samth: is matthew?
16:56 jay-mccarthy: you won't know if you fixed anything unless you do
16:56 jay-mccarthy: what would you do now?
16:56 samth: i would notice some bug, change the code, see that the bug goes away, and push
16:56 jay-mccarthy: "see that the bug goes away"... how?
16:56 samth: by running my slides
16:57 jay-mccarthy: why not include those in the push?
16:57 samth: (a) if the problem is with rendering, that's not a test
16:58 samth: (b) i don't think we should just include our not-yet-released slides in the source
16:58 jay-mccarthy: is it so hard to make a smaller slide that does it?
16:58 jay-mccarthy: i don't see why you can't test rendering
16:58 samth: you can test rendering, of course
16:58 samth: but you'd have to write a test harness
16:58 jay-mccarthy: redex render is tested by comparing a screenshot with the output
16:59 samth: and figure out how to compare images
16:59 samth: etc
16:59 samth: but obviously the redex test harness took effort to construct
17:00 jay-mccarthy: I guess we just disagree. I think that doing that is important and truly useful, but I get the impression you think it is a waste
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17:00 samth: jay-mccarthy, i think it is important and useful
17:00 samth: but i don't think that the right solution is to make whoever finds a bug in a program write its test suite
17:01 samth: i mean, i've written a very extensive test suite and complex test harness for TR
17:01 bill_h: Hi All.  I am failing miserably at basic send/suspend usage with the web-server.  I posted the code and the exception here in this lisp paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113617.  Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
17:01 samth: but i wouldn't expect someone else to do that work for me just to fix something simple
17:03 jay-mccarthy: bill_h: because you are using stateless servlets (did you know that?) you must add "#:stateless? #t" to serve/servlet
17:09 bill_h: jay-mccarthy: You are a life saver.  It slipped by me that the web-server language was stateless.  I'm back on the right track.
17:13 jay-mccarthy: great
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23:28 j3parker: eli: thanks for adding us to the mirror list :)
23:28 offby1: b
23:29 j3parker: we've been meaning to do this for awhile. as i may have said our school relies a lot on plt+friends (software + htdp etc.)